31

I'm asked:

$$\lim_{x\to 1} \frac{x^3 - 1}{x^2 + 2x -3}$$

This does obviously not evaluate since the denominator equals $0$. The solution is to:

$$\lim_{x\to 1} \frac{(x-1)(x^2+x+1)}{(x-1)(x+3)}$$ $$\lim_{x\to 1} \frac{x^2 + x + 1}{x + 3}$$ $$\frac{1+1+1}{1+3} = \frac{3}{4}$$

My question: what is actually happening? How can simplifying a function give it another limit? Is it a complete other function and if so why would it be relevant to our original question?

  • Good elementary question +1. – Paramanand Singh Jun 12 '16 at 00:29
  • 10
    The limits are not different. The first form is just a indeterminate limit of the kind $\frac00$, this mean that you need some manipulation to get the value for this limit. – Masacroso Jun 12 '16 at 00:55
  • 11
    This might surprise you, but 0/0 can be made to equal any number. In reality, you are not changing the limit. Instead, you are limiting the infinite range that 0/0 returns to the fnite range of a single real value. In essence, the first limit you obtained simply stated "this expression could be equal to literally anything". That is why it is called indeterminate; it has no apparent value. – user64742 Jun 12 '16 at 00:59
  • 10
    @TheGreatDuck: More accurate would be to say "any real number can be the limit of the form 0/0". Your phrasing makes it sound like $\lim_{x \to 0} \frac{x}{x}$ can be set equal to anything you want. –  Jun 12 '16 at 06:13
  • 5
    @TheGreatDuck: Yes, Hurkyl is right, and your statement is at best misleading. Please don't do that... – user21820 Jun 12 '16 at 06:19
  • @user21820 1. Please don't follow me around math stack exchange. 2. It is not misleading. I said the equation written purely as "0/0" can be changed algebraically so that it equals any real number. I mean this literally. 0/0 = 5. 0/0 = 7. And 0/0 = 1. I'm 90% certain I saw this fine at one time or another. It has little to do with limits and more about interpreting 0/0. I think it has something to do with multiplication by an integer resulting in 0/0 while simultaneously making it default to 1.Those two things in combination allows 0/0 to equal any number. But I may be wrong.It was a while ago – user64742 Jun 12 '16 at 06:39
  • 4
    @TheGreatDuck: (1) You're paranoid. This was in the Hot Network Questions list. I didn't follow you... (2) That's false. As I said in earlier discussion with you already, "$0/0$" is a meaningless expression until you define it. The asker didn't, so it is meaningless. Seriously, I recommend you go and learn logic first. Then all these will become much clearer to you, as to what exactly is meaningful syntax and semantics. – user21820 Jun 12 '16 at 06:41
  • Well you've posted on a few of my posts lately. I thought maybe you were browsing my recent posts. There's nothing wrong with it. I just don't personally like it. 2. I wasn't saying it is defined. I'm saying that any attempt to give it a value results in it having all values. I did not make this up myself. I have seen it done multiple times without a limit. It's a very strange proof, and it shows why the limit can be indeterminate for all those values. It's like that because 0/0 actually could equal 3/4 (or any number for that matter) regardless of limit. Though, I admit it is peculiar.
  • – user64742 Jun 12 '16 at 06:45
  • 2
    @TheGreatDuck: (1) I look through not only the Hot Questions but also Recent Questions and Linked Questions. That should explain it. (2) What you're now saying is not right, and I stand by my judgement that you need to learn logic. You said "0/0 can be made to equal any number" which means "$\forall x \in Number\ ( \text{We can make $0/0 = x$.} )$". That is false under reasonable interpretation of "Number" and "we can make", such as $\mathbb{R}$ and "it is consistent to add the axiom $0/0 = x$". This does not imply anything of the sort "the limit can be indeterminate ...". – user21820 Jun 12 '16 at 07:20
  • 3
    @TheGreatDuck: What you can correctly say is the following: IF $0/0$ is a real number (and arithmetic on fractions are extended in the same manner to this 'fraction'), THEN pigs can fly and the moon is made of dark chocolate. Also, this issue has nothing to do with limits, seriously. Do read up on the rigorous ε-δ definition of limits and learn how to write purely formal proofs in some formal system using them, then you'll see what I mean. – user21820 Jun 12 '16 at 07:26
  • @user21820 Euler agrees with TheGreatDuck. "These things are very clear, even in ordinary arithmetic. Everyone knows that when zero is multiplied by any number, the product is zero and that $n \cdot 0 = 0$, so that $n : 1 = 0 : 0$." –  Jun 12 '16 at 08:30
  • 6
    @lastresort: Sorry, being Euler does not make one correct or even close to correct. – user21820 Jun 12 '16 at 09:23
  • @user21820 that may be true but it is generally reasonable to presume such writings to be correct, especially when they become the basis for branches of mathematics. After all, Euler was right far more often than when he was wrong... At least, in the writing we use today of his. Also, nobody said it has to be a flawless perfect proof. It works as an explanation on why the limit is indeterminate. The author asked why the value changed. I'm merely stating it didn't. In that particular problem 0/0 did in fact equal 3/4. – user64742 Jun 12 '16 at 14:57
  • 6
    @TheGreatDuck: Look I've had enough of this. I've helped you as much as I could, but now you're just pretending to know mathematics that you don't seem to. If you're willing to learn, I'm willing to teach (and learn), but if not I'm going to spend my time with other people. That very thing cited by lastresort is utter nonsense, and I don't care who wrote it. – user21820 Jun 12 '16 at 15:49
  • 1
    @user21820 I never asked you to come here and chew me out because I made a simple explanation on why it is called an indeterminate form. The person asked why 0/0 changed to 3/4. He's asking about the fact that it had meaning and I merely explained something that is not a untrue or misleading statement. If you attempt to give the number 0/0 a value you find that by simple algebraic manipulation it can also be made to equal any other number at the time. I understand that the expression is nonsense. As I opened with in my post, this is the consequence of attempting to give it a value. – user64742 Jun 12 '16 at 22:00
  • 1
    @TheGreatDuck: You were the one who came here and made a misleading comment. Your claim in that comment was not at all what you're now claiming; it was "0/0 can be made to equal any number." If it had been "0/0 can be made to equal any number if you attempt to give it a value to begin with", then it would be perfectly fine, but still totally irrelevant, because limits have nothing to do with the value at that point even if it exists! In my opinion, I have the responsibility to correct your comment for the sake of other readers, not just you. – user21820 Jun 13 '16 at 02:30
  • @TheGreatDuck: You have ignored my recommendations in the past, but it is really you who need to listen to them if you want to learn mathematics. I'm going to say for the last time that you need to learn logic. After that, learn the rigorous definition of limits and you'll see that whatever you're saying here is not relevant. It is the equivalent of saying: "If the moon (0/0) is made of chocolate (number), then we can eat as much chocolate as we want (0/0 is any number we like). That is why a chocolate factory (limit of an expression of form 0/0) can provide as much chocolate as we want.". – user21820 Jun 13 '16 at 02:38
  • Sir, I have learned logic. That's my point. You assume I have a lack of understanding of certain subjects that I already know! And yes, the value of 0/0 is relevent because the author specifically asked "why did 0/0 change to 3/4". that was the statement I referred to. I explained why the value appeared to change, because in reality 3/4 can equal 0/0. Yes, we don't expect it to, but it is not like 1/0 where is complete idiocy for 1/0 to equal 3/4. It makes sense, and as Euler wrote, it is the generally accepted explanation of what "indeterminate" means. It means undefinedness by ambiguity. – user64742 Jun 13 '16 at 03:55
  • @ParamanandSingh - Hi, sorry had to write this although this here because there is no other way to connect. This is Nilotpal, 11 years ago, we were both the admins of the Orkut math community in the early days of internet mathematics. I have a math project in mind and wanted to connect with you to see if it interests you. Let me know how to connect. I am in Delhi 2,3,7, 59, 211, 13469 and [email protected] – Nilotpal Sinha Jan 27 '17 at 15:13