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Currently, 'infinite set' sounds oxymoronic to me, so my question is how to interpret what a set is such that it is consonant with it being infinite. I understand that we take it as axiomatic that infinite sets exist, but I'm wondering how to interpret what a set is on a high-level way to allow for the possibility of it being infinite. A set has been taught to me to be 'a collection of objects'; and when considering the set of all $x$, the capacity to collect all types/instatiations of $x$ implies to me that the set of all $x$ is finite- in real life, if I imagine these things as discrete objects, and collecting in a box of some size, I can only fit a finite amount into this box.

I do potentially see that we could 'fit' an infinite amount of reals in a finite space of length 1, in some sense; however, the act of collecting them cannot be performed in a real world time, and this doesn't work to explain the set of all real numbers, or the set of all natural numbers- I fail to see how it is possible to collect them. So I am wondering how to interpret a 'collection of objects', or 'set', here, in an abstract way which allows for it being infinite.

ac15
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Princess Mia
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    This is a well known conundrum. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_infinity – Ethan Bolker Dec 25 '23 at 13:13
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    I think the main issue here is that you're thinking of mathematics as some sort of a computational process. Something that is done by some iterative calculations. But modern mathematics is not that, at all. – Asaf Karagila Dec 25 '23 at 17:40
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    "Collection" is just a useful metaphor, but don't take it too literally. It's not the act of collecting, it's the membership that's the core concept. An object is either in some set, or it isn't, according to some chosen criterion. E.g. the "set of all stars in the universe" (suppose the universe is infinite and that there are infinitely many stars, and that "star" is precisely defined) - you don't have to go out and "collect" stars; if an object has the appropriate properties, it's a star, and is therefore in the set. The mere fact that you can classify them as stars puts them in the set. – Filip Milovanović Dec 25 '23 at 22:35
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    Do you believe there are infinitely many natural numbers $1,2,...$? (If not, how many are there?) If so, why shouldn't we have a mathematical object to refer to them collectively? "Set" is just the noun we've chosen for this. – Karl Dec 26 '23 at 14:00
  • Does this answer your question? Set theory without infinite sets – MJD Dec 26 '23 at 15:35

4 Answers4

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The notion of a set being a "collection of objects" is admittedly rather vague, but it helps to think of a set as being an abstract mathematical concept. Whether or not a set is infinite says nothing about our ability to "fit all of the elements into it", as if you are fitting real-life objects into a box. Instead, the term infinite has a precise mathematical definition. There are a number of equivalent ways to say precisely what an infinite set is. Here is one possible definition:

  • If $A$ and $B$ are sets, we say that $A$ is a subset of $B$, written as $A\subseteq B$, if every element of $A$ is an element of $B$. If, in addition, $A\neq B$, we say that $A$ is a proper subset of $B$.
  • If $A$ and $B$ are sets, we say that $A$ and $B$ are equivalent if there is a function $f:A\to B$ which is one-to-one and whose image is equal to $B$.
  • A set $A$ is said to be infinite if it has a proper subset $B$ which it is equivalent to. Otherwise, we say that $A$ is finite.

Notice that according to this definition, infinite is the basic concept, whereas finite simply means not infinite. If you find this unsatisfying, then there are other equivalent definitions where finiteness is the basic concept.1 See, for instance, Halmos's book Naive Set Theory.

In spite of the apparent precision in the above definition, you might protest that the idea of a set being a "collection of objects" is still rather nebulous, and you are right. This is ultimately one of the motivations for axiomatic set theory. In axiomatic set theory, all of our reasoning is based on a list of axioms intended to describe the properties of sets (more specifically, the pure well-founded sets, as motivated by the cumulative hierarchy). The most common axiom system is known as Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory ($\mathsf{ZFC}$). For instance, one of the axioms, known as the Axiom of Extensionality, states that $$ \forall A\forall B(\forall z(z\in A\Leftrightarrow z\in B)\Leftrightarrow A=B) \, . $$ We usually think of this axiom as "saying" that two sets are equal if and only if they have the same elements. However, this is just the informal interpretation that we assign to the above string of symbols. Notice that the word "set" and the phrase "collection of objects" do not feature at all in the above axiom, and there is nothing that compels us to think of $\in$ as being the "true membership relation" (if such a thing even exists). In axiomatic set theory, $\in$ is a primitive (undefined) symbol. We say how $\in$ behaves, through our axioms, but we never make any ontological claims about what $\in$ "is".

In fact, there is not a single proof in $\mathsf{ZFC}$ that ever uses the fact that we interpret the variables to be ranging over the "universe of sets", and $\in$ as denoting set membership.2 Instead, everything follows precisely from the axioms, according to a fixed collection of deductive rules known as the inference rules. Moreover, if a proof in set theory is written out in full using the inference rules, then its correctness can be verified mechanically by a computer that does not "know" anything about sets or set membership.3

This means that we have an agreed standard of proof in set theory, without ever having to worry about the thorny question of what a set actually "is". That question becomes a philosophical one, and though it is fascinating to contemplate, you don't actually need to ponder it to do real mathematics.


1Technically, the definition I have given is that of a Dedekind-infinite set. Set theorists tend to prefer the definition that an infinite set is a set which is equivalent to a proper initial segment of $\mathbb \omega$. The reason is that, to prove that a set is Dedekind-infinite if and only if it is infinite, we need to use (a weak version of) the axiom of choice, and some set theorists are interested in doing set theory without the axiom of choice. It is consistent with $\mathsf{ZF}$ that there is an infinite set which is Dedekind-finite, i.e. not Dedekind-infinite.

2Hilbert's quote about "tables, chairs, and beer mugs" seems apropos here.

3An example of a proof being written out "in full" can be found here. This kind of proof is known as a formal proof, to distinguish from the informal proofs that we write out when we are doing ordinary mathematics. There is some further discussion of the distinction in this post.

Joe
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Lots of math ideas arise from concepts in the real world, but we strip away some of the real world limitations on them. The result is concepts that are much more clearly and explicitly defined, but we lose being able to create them in the real world.

I'll suggest that you start with the real world motivations, but be willing to accept that some things that used to make sense are, after we've abstracted them, no longer possible.

There's an apocryphal "test" for people who will make good mathematicians:

Q: Suppose every dog has 5 legs, and there are -4 dogs in the yard. How many legs are there in the yard?

The math answer is "-20". Yes, it's a silly answer, but it's consistent with our abstraction of multiplying numbers. And the uses we've found for this abstraction are almost infinite!

JonathanZ
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How to interpret what a set is $-$

A set is simply an object of/inside some set theory, nothing more, nothing less

I understand that we take it as axiomatic that infinite sets exist, $-$

In some set theories, yes, but not necessarily/not in all of them: a theory for hereditarily finite sets may be given by, say, taking all the axioms of $ZFC$ except the 'Infinity axiom', and instead positing as axioms statements that all objects are finite (there are some possibilities)

$-$ but I'm wondering how to interpret what a set is on a high-level way to allow for the possibility of it being infinite.

I believe Adrian Mathias comments somewhere that $ZFC$ and related theories can be thought/are best thought not as being about theories of collections, but as being about/the study of well-foundedness. This makes good sense, especially when we notice that (related) theories of first-order and second-order arithmetics ('of natural numbers' and stuff) as being about the differing strengths of different induction principles

A set has been taught to me to be 'a collection of objects'; and when considering the set of all x , the capacity to collect all types/instatiations of x implies to me that the set of all x is finite- in real life, [...] the act of collecting them cannot be performed in a real world time, $-$

It's strongly advisible to give up on any notion that concepts in mathematics do/should correspond directly to concepts in non-scientific discourses, or 'real life', or 'real world', whatever these are

ac15
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The objection you formulated is arguably a compelling one and in fact a school of mathematics called Finitism rejects the existence of infinite sets. In theory this may be a compelling stance, but in practice, so many applications of mathematics in the natural sciences and elsewhere seem to depend on traditional set-theoretic foundations (including infinite sets) that it seems impossible to implement a finitist approach in practice while at the same time salvaging all the applications. If in the future a more viable finitist approach is developed that can accomodate the applications without being too burdensome, your objections will have been proven correct.

Mikhail Katz
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