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I have read many related questions about wrong proof of Axiom of Choice(AC), especially this. I have the same problem like that. Then, I read Asaf's answer, something he metioned bothered me.

The first question: Is it true that we can only have finite application of EI(Existential Instantiation) in $\textbf{ZF}$.

The second question: I don't know what his means about this sentence

There is a family of finite sets indexed by $\textbf{X}$ which will not admit a choice function.

Is it a theroem in $\textbf{ZF}$?

The last question is about my explanation of wrong proof of AC after read his answer.My explanation is: we know that a function $f:X\rightarrow Y$ must declare which $y\in Y$ corresponds to $x\in X$. However, if for every non-empty sets $A\in \{\textbf{X}_\lambda\}_{\lambda\in I}$ contains at least two elements, by our definition, we can't get a function, since we actually don't know which elements $x\in A$ corresponds to $A$. But we can eliminate this problem in this sense:fix $x\in A$, and let $f(A)=x$, for finite family of sets, it is finite steps; for infinite family of sets, it is infinite steps, but a valid proof in $\textbf{ZF}$, we require it will terminate by finite steps(Is that so?). So, the method we used is vaild for finite family of sets, and not vaild for infinite family of sets.

I also consider an example $g(x)=x(x\in\mathbb{R})$, it seems like I defined $g$ with infinite steps like this: $g(1)=1, g(2)=2,...$, but by $g(x)=x$ we actucally for each $x\in\mathbb{R}$ have a exact real number correspond to $x$.It is different from the method we used in our wrong proff, because we can't say every $A$ have an exact element $x\in A$ correspond to $x$. We can just define step by step, however, it is infinite, which is not vaild proof in $\textbf{ZF}$. Is my understanding correct? Thanks for your answer!

MGIO
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    Regarding the first point: "The naive idea would be to utilise the logic, apply Existential Instantiation repeatedly, so if we have {A0,…,An}, we can use EI to obtain a0∈A0,…,an∈An, and then consider the formula which defines the function f(An)=an." In the first-order language of $\mathsf {ZF}$ formula are finite expressions. Thus, we cannot build an "infinite conjunction" with all the individual witnesses. – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Oct 17 '23 at 13:22
  • AC is quite a technical phenomenon. If you actually try and write down your proof in ZF, you'll find that there are no axioms that let you "fix $x \in A$ for each $A$" - this is exactly AC. Regarding your second question - the statement you give is not a theorem of ZF. If it was, ZFC would be inconsistent. Rather the theorem is that "if ZF is consistent, then there is some model of ZF where there is a family of finite sets not admitting a choice function", AKA "then it is consistent that there is a family of finite sets not admitting a choice function". This is also quite technical! – Izaak van Dongen Oct 17 '23 at 13:35
  • @IzaakvanDongen I also have two questions from your comment. Perhaps my inappropriate expression has misled you, all I want to say is we can get a exact element $x\in A$ such that $f(A)$ can be determined, we did the same thing in finite family of sets, didn't we? Regarding second question, you said there is a family of finite sets not admitting a choice function, so there must something wrong in proof, I wonder this wrong point is as same as I mentioned in question 3. Anyway, thank you very much! – MGIO Oct 17 '23 at 15:16
  • In my opinion to really get to grips with these technical issues around the axiom of choice, it's essential to have some knowledge of first-order logic and the syntax and semantics/model theory of first-order theories. Do you know what I mean by "a model of a first-order theory $T$"? Do you know, for example, the completeness theorem for first-order logic? If not, I would suggest reading about some of that stuff. I completely understand that it seems obvious that you can just pick elements from each set $A$, but this simply doesn't translate into a valid proof in the language of ZF. – Izaak van Dongen Oct 17 '23 at 15:38
  • I'm sorry, I'm just starting to study mathematical logic and set theory. But I 'm not going on because there seems exist a circle between set theory and mathematical logic in my opinion, I'm still to figure out this question.Thus, I don't know about these knowledge. So, to figure out my question, I supposed to learn more about mathematical logic? Thank you for your advice! – MGIO Oct 17 '23 at 15:56
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    This perceived circularity is a confusing and somewhat philosophical issue! I think almost everyone who has learned any set theory has been thrown off by this at some point. However it really isn't actually a problem. I think it helps a lot to have some understanding of logic first. See this thread, and this and this and this and this. – Izaak van Dongen Oct 17 '23 at 16:05
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    In particular, I think it's unhelpful to think of set theory as "the study of how we build up actual maths from first principles". Rather it's just some first-order theory with some interesting properties, that we study in the same way we study any other first-order theory (eg group theory). It's true that you need some basic assumptions about maths "in the metatheory" if you want to get anything done, but this isn't really a defect of set theory. This is just as true if you want to study group theory. To find out how exactly what assumptions you need is the subject of "reverse mathematics". – Izaak van Dongen Oct 17 '23 at 16:09

1 Answers1

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The first question is yes, but it has nothing to do with $\sf ZF$ and everything to do with the fact that proofs are by definition finite. At least in the classical, first-order logic style setting. Since a proof is finite, we can only apply any inference rule finitely many times. In particular, we can only apply EI finitely many times.

For the second question, you're quoting only half the sentence.

we know that if $\sf ZF$ is at all consistent, then it is also consistent that for any infinite set $X$, there is a family of finite sets indexed by $X$ which will not admit a choice function.

In other words: (1) this is not provable from $\sf ZF$, so it is not a theorem, as it would outright disprove $\sf AC$; but (2) it is consistent, so it isn't even a theorem of $\sf ZF+\lnot AC$, but rather just a possible scenario.

Finally, it is possible to describe a choice function from some infinite families of non-empty sets. For example, $\{A\subseteq\mathbb R\mid |A|=1\}$ is an infinite family of non-empty sets, but we can easily describe a choice function: $F(\{a\})=a$.

It is also not accurate that this is just about an iterated application of EI. This will, of course, prove that $\{A_0,\dots,A_n\}$ admits a choice function. But we also need to contend with the possibility that our universe has non-standard integers. If you're not familiar with that, this is a minefield of conceptual difficulties that may exist, but the take from is this: it is certainly possible that there are "more natural numbers" inside the universe [of set theory] than outside. Since the concept of "finite" is internal to the universe of set theory, iterating EI will not be sufficient in that case, and we need to get a better result. However, luckily, $\sf ZF$ is a fairly strong theory, it proves an internal version of induction, so we can write the proof by induction where we apply EI only twice.

Asaf Karagila
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  • I can understand your answer to question1 and question2.However, with the answer to the question2, I know our proof is wrong, but where is wrong? Is it the same as my explanation? I understand it is possible to describe a choice function from some infinite families of non-empty sets, I think is similar to the example I mentioned. – MGIO Oct 17 '23 at 15:41
  • And I'm just starting to learn set theory and mathematical logic by myself, which is really difficult for me at first, because seems they defined each other. I still find the reason from your answer to the question about they seems to be a circular definition, so I can only have a vague feeling about the last paragraph. – MGIO Oct 17 '23 at 15:42