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First let me say that I have read tons of questions and answers on AC but none helps me get past this issue, so I am posting my own question.

Let's say we have an infinite family of disjoint non-empty sets $\{ X_{\lambda} \}_{\lambda \in I}$.

What's wrong with the following reasoning:

  1. $\forall \lambda \in I \; \exists x_{\lambda} \in X_{\lambda}$
  2. Then, there exists a choice function, which maps $\lambda \to x_{\lambda}$

Everything I read says that you can do it for one set only (and then by induction for finitely many sets), but I see absolutely no reason why this argument that I wrote doesn't work (without AC) for any collection of sets.

Jean Marie
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Jesus
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    Your ‘reasoning’ isn’t reasoning at all, you have just stated two disjoint claims with no explanation connecting them, and until you do so it will be impossible to answer your question. – Vivaan Daga May 26 '22 at 06:19
  • Consider an infinite collection of pairs of socks. Give me, explicitly, the function that chooses one sock from each pair. – Gerry Myerson May 26 '22 at 06:22
  • @GerryMyerson if you give me, explicitly, the function that chooses one sock from each pair from a finite collection of pairs, I don't see why I couldn't give you one for the infinite case. – Jesus May 26 '22 at 06:24
  • @VioletFlame Well then what do you use in the one set case? What do you connect the two statements with? – Jesus May 26 '22 at 06:24
  • Because we can write down a function with domain, say, six pairs of socks: pick the first pair up, grab the sock in your right hand. Pick the second pair up, grab the sock in your right hand,... pick the sixth pair, grab the sock in your right hand. But you cannot write a finite process/formula that makes infinitely many arbitrary choices. That's the difference between finite and infinite, and between "I can do it for any of the infinitely many pairs" and "I can do it for all of the infinitely many pairs." – Arturo Magidin May 26 '22 at 06:29
  • I can do that. I can look at those finitely many pairs, one at a time, and pick a sock from each. I might pick the blue one from the first pair, the one on the left from the second pair, the older one from the third pair, and so on, and after a finite amount of work, I'm done. But from an infinite collection, I have to make infinitely many specifications, and that I can't do. – Gerry Myerson May 26 '22 at 06:30
  • If you think you can do it, then do it. Prove there is a function that chooses a point from each non empty set of reals. Without using AC. – Asaf Karagila May 26 '22 at 08:09
  • @AsafKaragila Can you write (and how) a function that chooses a point from a collection of finitely many non empty sets of reals? – Jesus May 26 '22 at 11:04
  • Not in general, but I can write a proof it exists. – Asaf Karagila May 26 '22 at 11:34
  • @AsafKaragila Perhaps it would shed some light for me, if you wrote the proof for finitely many and explained why it can't be generalised to infinitely many sets, as an answer? – Jesus May 26 '22 at 11:48
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    Surely this is a duplicate! – Alex Kruckman May 26 '22 at 15:14
  • @AsafKaragila What I'm actually confused by is why when we define the function for shoes; by choosing the left one, we can do this for all pairs at the same time. But when we define the function for socks, by existential instantiation, we need to do it in steps, for every pair, one after another. What's the difference? – Jesus May 26 '22 at 16:58
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    Because socks are not right/left a priori. Only after you've chosen one to be the left sock, the other is by default a right sock. The point is that there is no uniform property that separate one sock from the other throughout all the pairs. – Asaf Karagila May 26 '22 at 17:41
  • @AsafKaragila So if I understand correctly, there are only two ways of defining a function. Either by a general rule that universally applies to all elements in the domain or by defining values one by one, which can only be done for finitely many elements. Is that correct? If so, is this the consequence of ZF and the rules for defining sets? – Jesus May 26 '22 at 17:50
  • I just have to run one errand, and then I can write a proper answer. – Asaf Karagila May 26 '22 at 17:51
  • @AsafKaragila thank you! – Jesus May 26 '22 at 17:57

2 Answers2

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The reason you can't do it for infinitely large $I$ is simply that none of the ZF axioms allow you to do that in a finite number of steps. Intuitively / naively it is "obvious" that this can be done. But ultimately, it is known to be impossible to formally prove, using ZF, that a set that represents such a choice function exists, without more assumptions on $I$ or the $X_\lambda$s.

I don't there is a good intuitive way to explain this insufficiency of ZF. You can come up with intuitive examples like pairs of socks to illustrate what the AoC brings to the table, but in my opinion it doesn't really explain in any way why it is impossible to do without it.

Arthur
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  • I think that to explain the insufficiency of ZF the first thing you have to do is know exactly what ZF is. I suspect that most of the people who work in branches of mathematics unrelated to foundations would not be able to list the axioms of ZF – I certainly couldn't do it – and are therefore in no position to explain why you can't do without choice. – Gerry Myerson May 27 '22 at 11:31
  • It’s not just about the insufficiency of ZF but also of the underlying first order logic @GerryMyerson – Vivaan Daga May 28 '22 at 10:34
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There are a lot of subtleties here. For one, existence in itself is a semantic property of objects, whereas proofs are syntactic objects. So, in some sense, things can easily exist in a universe of mathematics, even if we cannot prove or disprove their existence. Especially when we cannot do those things. This is the essence of independence.

This is why examples related to the failure of choice are always so wishy-washy and rely on bad analogies or handwaving. It is simply the case that the axiom of choice is consistent with $\sf ZF$, and so no such failures might exist; or it might be that the axiom of choice fails, but in a manner so remote from "everyday sets", that it is hard to give satisfying examples.

But suppose that we wanted to only assume $\sf ZF$, how can we still determine whether a family admits a choice function or not? Well. If we can prove that a family satisfying some condition admits a choice function, then this must be true in every universe of $\sf ZF$, independent of whether or not the axiom of choice holds there.

Sometimes we can do this by utilising facts and giving explicit definitions. For example, say that we are given a family of compact subsets of real numbers, then we know that each such set is both closed and bounded from below, and therefore it has a minimum. So we can define a function explicitly mapping each compact set to its minimum.

But what is "define a function" anyway? Well, we utilise the axioms of $\sf ZF$ to prove that there is a choice function, or a transversal set (which is easier to state in the pure language of set theory), or whatever object is of interest here.

The other way is to simply prove there is a function, even if we can't give it an explicit definition. So, in our example, if we simply wish to prove that a finite family admits a choice function, since we have no properties to rely on for that "explicit definition", we need to have something more general.

The naive idea would be to utilise the logic, apply Existential Instantiation repeatedly, so if we have $\{A_0,\dots,A_n\}$, we can use EI to obtain $a_0\in A_0,\dots,a_n\in A_n$, and then consider the formula which defines the function $f(A_n)=a_n$.

This is a good intuition, but it fails once you realise that we also have to take into consideration models where there are non-standard integers. The problem here is that there will now be sets that are considered to be "finite" from the universe's point of view, but they are too big for the naive iteration of EI to work. Luckily, $\sf ZF$ proves its own internal induction, and we internalise the EI thing, so we can simply make the claim that if $\cal A$ admits a choice function and $A$ is non-empty, then $\mathcal A\cup\{A\}$ admits a choice function: use EI to get a choice function for $\cal A$, then again to get an element from $A$, and then put them together. Easy peasy, with only two applications of EI.

So, why doesn't that work for any good ol' family of sets? Well, the proof simply fails. You need to know that by removing a single set from the family, you will obtain a choice function. If the family is finite, this is internally a terminating process (within finitely many steps), and the whole thing works; but if the family is infinite, then removing elements one after the other has no means to guarantee that the process terminates.

And indeed, we know that if $\sf ZF$ is at all consistent, then it is also consistent that for any infinite set $X$, there is a family of finite sets indexed by $X$ which will not admit a choice function. So, it's not just that the above proof doesn't work, no proof works.

So, if you want to prove that a choice function exists, you need an axiom that guarantees that a choice function exists. This is exactly what the axiom of choice does.

But, let me be clear, your confusion is quite natural. I sat through a talk about proof mining and natural-language proof assistants. The speaker pointed out that due to its second-order nature, the proof assistant proves the axiom of choice, exactly by switching quantifiers. In fact, in some constructive foundations of mathematics, the statement "$\cal A$ is a family of non-empty sets" requires you to have a uniform witness that each set is non-empty, which means that the axiom of choice is but a mere theorem.

Here we see the difference between shoes and socks very clearly. For pairs of shoes, there is a uniform way to show that a pair of shoes is "not empty", whereas for socks there is no uniform discerning property that will work for all pairs. So the fact we can pick one pair, choose one sock, and then pick a second pair, and so on, has no bearing on the fact that there is no uniform way to describe a property that only works for a single sock in all the pairs simultaneously.

The only way to go through this confusion, I'm afraid, is to work out some of these things, study a few choiceless models, and trying to develop a better intuition. To quote von Neumann, "Young man, in mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them."

Asaf Karagila
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  • Thank you for this thorough answer! – Jesus May 27 '22 at 14:55
  • It should be noted that Zermelo thought of the axiom of choice as a ‘law of logic’ rather than a separate axiom. So really the logic being addressed in this answer is FOL. – Vivaan Daga May 28 '22 at 05:12