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Suppose I have the set of all things $\{a, b, c,... \}$. It seems to me that $ \mathcal P \{a, b, c,... \} $ would be the set of all sets, which sounds like it includes the set of all sets that do not contain themselves. However, I can't envision deriving that set from the power set of $\{a, b, c,... \}$.

My thinking is that, so long as there are no sets in $\{a, b, c,... \}$, then the paradox doesn't arise. Otherwise, my reasoning, or my knowledge, is shamefully off.

Where did I go wrong?

Hal
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    Well as far as I understand, "the set of all things" is not a set, you can't just say "I take everything and call it $A$", and there is actually quite a delicate process describing what is or isn't a set. – Nescio Apr 23 '15 at 23:26
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    So... sets are not "things"? The whole point of introducing sets to mathematics is that collections of mathematical objects are "things", they are mathematical objects in their own rights. Not to mention that ${{a}}$ is a set, and it is not in the power set of "the set of all things", so either ${a}$ is not a thing or ${{a}}$ is not a set. – Asaf Karagila Apr 23 '15 at 23:30
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    @AsafKaragila I didn't say sets aren't things. I said if they aren't (or weren't), then the paradox doesn't arise. I'll add that, a 'thing' is not an 'object'. We don't just say 'object' to sound more sophisticated. The word 'thing' is a usefully vague term; 'object' is a generic term, but, nonetheless, a precise term. – Hal Apr 23 '15 at 23:36
  • Usefully vague term? How is it useful? – Asaf Karagila Apr 23 '15 at 23:58
  • You might also find this answer to be useful somehow. – Asaf Karagila Apr 24 '15 at 00:15
  • Sets can contain sets. If the powerset of the set of all things was the set of all sets, then the set of all things already contained every set, so you're saying: "If we start with the set of all sets, then its powerset is the set of all sets" - which is somewhat vacuous - yes, if we have a set of all sets, there is a set of all sets. – Milo Brandt Apr 24 '15 at 03:13
  • @AsafKaragila lots of terms are usefully vague. An example that relates to numbers would be the phrase 'a few'. E.g. "A few ducks swam by". It conveys the right location in the semantic space, so to speak. However, it doesn't commit you in the way that "two or three ducks swam by" does: you wouldn't be wrong if four ducks swam by, you'd just be off the mark a little. Alternatively, if you were teaching someone about sets for the first time, you might want to use a term like 'bunch' in order to home in on the notion, instead of using 'set' or 'collection' (which is something else). – Hal Apr 24 '15 at 07:44
  • I know what is a usefully vague term is. I am asking how "thing" is useful in this context. More specifically, in mathematics which thrives on clarity of meaning and lack of ambiguity. How is an ambiguous term helping you to understanding Russell's paradox (it seems not to) or convey your difficulty (which to me seems inherent in clinging to "thing")? – Asaf Karagila Apr 24 '15 at 08:02
  • @AsafKaragila One of the ways that they're useful, is in aligning concepts. Someone who is learning something doesn't have the same set of concepts that someone who has learned it has. Consequently, the learner cannot use the terms that denote those concepts. If he tries to use precise terms, he risks asking the wrong question. This is true in most things, perhaps, especially, math. As for this question, if I had used 'objects', then I would have expressed confidence in a concept that I wasn't confident about, and wouldn't convey what information would help me. – Hal Apr 24 '15 at 11:05
  • Learners should learn how not to be confident. If you don't know and want to learn, showing your lack of understanding is only for your benefit. – Asaf Karagila Apr 24 '15 at 11:12
  • @AsafKaragila If the student does not show the teacher what the student does not understand, then the teacher does not know what the student does not understand. In order for the teacher to help the student understand what the student does not understand, the teacher needs to know what the student doesn't understand. To help students understand what students do not understand is what teachers do. Therefore the teacher cannot do what teachers do if the student does not show the teacher what the student does not understand. – Hal Apr 25 '15 at 17:07
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    That's a bunch of "I don't want to show other people that I don't understand because I'm afraid to be ridiculed by others. So I expect my teachers to magically show me what I don't understand, in a way that won't embarrass me in front of everyone". I have nothing more to say here, so I won't bother with this thread anymore. But learning involves putting your pride aside and being open and honest about what you know or don't know. If you can't get that through your head, then I do not envy your teachers. Best of luck in your future endeavors. – Asaf Karagila Apr 25 '15 at 17:08
  • @AsafKaragila that's the very reason I used 'thing' instead of 'object'. In contexts like this one, the word 'thing' conveys its users lack of understanding better than the precise word 'object' does. If I ought not use words to convey my lack of understanding, than I can't imagine how I could do so in a written question. (That said, no matter what my reply is a "bunch of", its conclusion is validly inferred from indisputable premises.) – Hal Apr 25 '15 at 17:13

3 Answers3

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If sets can only contain things and are not allowed to contain sets, then your reasoning is ok and you escape the paradox. But then you have the trouble of defining what things are, and what happens when you want to talk about multiple sets of things at the same time? Given these hardships, it makes sense to concede that sets may contain sets. What then?

Considering your set $A$, is $\{\{a,b\},\{c\}\}$ in the powerset of $A$? It isn't, and yet it is a set. (Try proving this with the axioms!) Notice that it is in the powerset of the powerset of $A$, however. Perhaps then we could describe sets as objects that are inside some amount of repetitions of the powerset operation!

Unfortunately, $\{\{a,b\}, c \}$ is not in the powerset of $A$, nor the powerset of the powerset of $A$, or any repetition of this concept. This is an unfortunate consequence of allowing things to be in sets. In order to construct $\{\{a,b\},c\}$, we need to apply other constructions like pairing and comprehension. This adds a lot of extra complication to the task of describing every set, and is completely unnecessary.

Finally, if we only allow sets to be in sets, then we can describe the collection of all sets with only the powerset and union operations. This is because (unlike things) the empty set has the nice property of being a subset of every set. From here we can see the motivation behind the construction of the Von Neumann universe which does in fact generate every possible set (while not being a set itself).

Jonny
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If you allow arbitrary subsets, you can prove that the set of all things cannot exist.

Proof: Suppose this universal set $U$ exists such that $\forall x: x\in U$.

Then there must exist a subset $S$ of $U$ such that $\forall x:[x\in S \iff x\in U \land x\notin x]$.

Clearly, $S\in U$. Then, using only the rules of logic, we can obtain the contradiction $S\in S \iff S\notin S$.

So, the set $U$ cannot exist.

Corollary: Every set excludes something.

The power set axiom presents no problems.

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It's not clear at all what you mean by "thing". Is the number $4$ a thing? What about the ordered pair $(5, 2)$? Or $\mathbb N$? Some of those may seem to you to be more or less like "things" than others, but in modern mathematics they are all regarded as sets. It sounds like you want to craft a variation of set theory that has both a rigidly-enforced distinction between "things" and "sets of things", and such a theory can be crafted -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urelement. The "things" in such a theory are often called "atomic elements" or "atoms", for natural reasons.

But in fact it turns out that "things" are entirely unnecessary. We can do just fine without them! In standard set theory we begin with the empty set $\varnothing$, start creating power sets, and are able to build up everything we need for mathematics. Ironically, though, in a theory that has no "things" in it, the "set of all things" is the empty set!

As for Russell's Paradox, it arises as soon as you start talking about "the set of all sets." If there were a set of all sets, then you would consider the subset of all sets that do not contain themselves, and that leads to a paradox. So in any version of set theory, whether there are atomic elements or not, there is no set of all sets.

mweiss
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    Minor correction to that last paragraph, Russell's paradox was *never* about the set of all sets. It's about unrestricted comprehension for all formulas. You can fix this whilst retaining "the set of all sets" in Quine's New Foundations by restricting the formulas which are allowed to create sets. – Asaf Karagila Apr 24 '15 at 00:07
  • @AsafKaragila True, but in many (most?) presentations of elementary set theory, Russell's Paradox is (first) explained as a consequence of allowing for a set of all sets. Since the context of the question was elementary set theory, it seemed like an appropriate way to discuss the paradox. – mweiss Apr 24 '15 at 00:13
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    Is it? It really shouldn't be. It should be explained in the correct terms, namely "We want collections to be sets, but it turns out that we can't arbitrarily require that every collection defines a set". – Asaf Karagila Apr 24 '15 at 00:14
  • I may be wrong about how it is usually presented. – mweiss Apr 24 '15 at 01:31
  • Wouldn't be the first time public opinion about set theory was wrong. :-) – Asaf Karagila Apr 24 '15 at 05:21