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Recently a friend of mine invited me to hear about “an interesting chance to simply earn money.” Basically we and other invited people drove to a meeting room where a speaker told us about a growing startup where you could invest money in a field where similar investments had an ROI of apparently 1000 times the investment in 6 years. Afterwards there was coffee and small talk together, during which they also indoctrinated people saying, they should avoid talking to people talking bad about the investment (or saying it is scam) because you can't gain money from them and they just want to destroy your business.

You earn money if you invest money and if you refer friends who invest money up to multiple levels. The more you invest yourself the greater percentage you earn for your referrals.

Since I had already seen other ponzi-/MLM-schemes and I am from the field it is based in, I recognized that there is no real product and it is a ponzi-/MLM-scheme. Later I found its name on the official scam warning list of multiple countries.

From what I understand, my friend has already invested multiple months or years worth of income; and is earning an amount of money through referrals that would mean scamming other people directly or indirectly through referrals for possibly several $100,000's per month to earn an additional bonus. He also wants to use his position as a respected member of multiple local youth groups and other community groups to get their members as referrals or in his words “…to give them the opportunity to also simply earn money.”

I tried to convince him that it is just a ponzi scam with my knowledge in this field but he answered with the indoctrinated speech “You don’t need to know the details if it makes you rich or use it. You also don't know how every detail of a smartphone works?”/“My sponsor already earned $x with this” or “If you don't believe in this, just stop talking about it to me and other people or do you want to ruin me, my business and my investments?.” So basically this means I can either make his investment worthless/let him lose everything (he also quit his job) or let him scam other people and motivate them to scam other people.

At the moment you can only withdraw small amounts of money out of it because the company invented some reason but you will be able to withdraw all of it “soon” (=most likely never).

What is the best way to resolve this situation (best meaning with lowest loss of money for everybody)?

Edit: The founders are known names in Ponzi schemes or convicted for crimes like fraudulent bankruptcy and many of their claims are technically impossible or proven to not exist with very high probability according to sites about ponzi schemes. But of course they say "Every bigger company has their scandals".

You can't trade the bought virtual coins outside the company and the only product you can buy can be bought anywhere else for less than 10% of the price without the logo.

When I met other friends they mentioned that they got invitations for the same meeting. I just stated to them that I already went to one and told them the name of the company (which was not stated on the invitation) and that I will not invest in it because there are official warnings that this is a scam.

Ryan
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H. Idden
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    Is there a product or service involved with this MLM? – JTP - Apologise to Monica Jul 30 '16 at 21:42
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    @JoeTaxpayer no physical product or any service. The product they are offering is purely virtual and even that is faked. They can only claim ownership to some virtual product where the company sets the price (some kind of virtual currency which is only tradeable on the website of the owner and related sites). This is disguised through some fake companies). But even the fake product doesn't exist as every person knowledgeable in this field can tell when thinking about the descriptions) – H. Idden Jul 30 '16 at 23:51
  • So a customer (i.e. someone not participating in the supposed business opportunity) would purportedly buy some quantity of the virtual currency, and then later spend that currency on some product or service, both of which transactions can be made only through this company's agents? – Dan Henderson Jul 31 '16 at 01:06
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    If there's any chance they'll trust official sources, this may help. It lists the red flags that point to a scam, and many of them are going to be present. Also, the "do you know how a smartphone works?" question is bogus. If you were going to invest in a company that made smartphones, you had better damn well know how the smartphone market works, what it takes to make a smartphone, who your competitors are, and so on. – David Schwartz Jul 31 '16 at 02:24
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    @DanHenderson It is not tradable outside the company and you cannot buy anything but both coming "soon" (since 2 years) except since recently for an item which usally costs 1% of the price anywhere else, so more or less a pseudo product. – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 08:14
  • @DavidSchwartz Thanks, I will try to translate it into local language and give it to him – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 08:59
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    I don't know if this will work, but it's something to try: instead of trying to convince your friend that he's involved in a Ponzi scheme, give him some descriptions of what a classic Ponzi scheme looks like, along with examples of historical Ponzi schemes and how they appeared to their "investors" during the scam. Leave it up to him to decide if this particular business resembles one of those, or not. That way he (perhaps) won't see you as attacking his livelihood, and therefore might be more open to the information. – Jeremy Jul 31 '16 at 14:04
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    “You don’t need to know the details if it makes you rich or use it. You also don't know how every detail of a smartphone works?” Here, just stand on that corner and sell this white powder. – acpilot Jul 31 '16 at 20:07
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    I didn't know Star Citizen had real-life meetups to sell JPEGs. – davidbak Jul 31 '16 at 22:44
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    Ponzi scams are illegal because they are form of theft - what would you do if this friend told you that he made a sizable investment into an illegal scheme to cheat people (and members of his youth club) out of money? Would you be worried about him losing his ill gained profits (plus whatever money of his own he invested into this scam?). In any case, stay far from this "friend", if you in any way assist him with this scam (even indirectly, like introducing him to a potential victim), you could be charged as an accessory to the crime. – Johnny Aug 01 '16 at 01:07
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    Not knowing "how every detail of a smartphone works" has an easy counter: I know enough that if someone tried to sell me a smartphone claiming that although it doesn't do anything now, if I keep using it for months it will develop the ability to teleport me around, I would be highly skeptical. However, even this might not work on your friend if he is indoctrinated enough. Many such schemes save face at their inevitable collapse by claiming it would have worked but it was ruined by a government conspiracy or by corrupt politicians, so some victims can be persuaded to join the next one. – vsz Aug 01 '16 at 06:10
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    I've read most of the answers and comments. I can only add: people learn from their own mistakes (most effectively)... Show your friend this q&a and "pray" (figure of speach) that he reads at least few answers. – Kyslik Aug 01 '16 at 06:45
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    @Kyslik answer is IMHO a good advice. If it does not make your friend think a bit further, you know what to do (related to previous comments). In the other hand, your friend probably has contracted debts to "invest" in this fraud... what could make him feel "trapped" and thus defending this hope of ROI with more strength. Friends of mine had the same problem, they're now ruined and reimbursing the bank for years... – Benj Aug 01 '16 at 08:23
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    What's the jurisdiction in which this is happening? – Christian Aug 01 '16 at 13:02
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    I am voting to close as off topic. I didn't originally think it was, but the question is more about how to convince a friend that a choice he is making is bad. The fact that it's a money based choice doesn't seem to matter much. – coteyr Aug 01 '16 at 18:23
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    "You don’t need to know the details if it makes you rich or use it." except you DO know the details - you described them. It's a basic Ponzi scheme. – Zibbobz Aug 01 '16 at 19:42
  • If you decide the friendship is not worth it in the end, I would suggest going to your local newspaper or TV station. It will get the research it deserves and the publicity to quell your conscience as well. – Caimen Aug 01 '16 at 20:22
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    is it OneCoin? Heard thats been making the rounds, is it really up to 6 years now? I heard it was 2 years lockup – CQM Aug 01 '16 at 22:12
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    While this doesn't answer your question, you'll probably have to cut all ties with this person. I forgot where I first read it but I particularly like the following way of phrasing it if you decide to go that route: "Call me if you ever realize this is a scam." (Edit: found it used on Reddit but I don't think it's the original source.) – Lilienthal Aug 02 '16 at 09:52
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    @H.Idden His 'investment' is already worthless, that money is gone, and he won't get it back even by drawing more people in. Shop the scheme while he is still a victim and not an accomplice. – JamesRyan Aug 02 '16 at 14:13
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    I'm surprised that nobody has suggested this so far (and I don't have enough rep to post an answer now that the question has been protected), but what about seeking help/advice from support groups that specifically work with victims of these sorts of fraud? Perhaps if your friend spoke with some of those people, who can not only relate to exactly what your friend is going through but can also paint a very personal picture of how bad things can get (not only for your friend, but also for those he's bringing into the scheme), he might see things differently? – eggyal Aug 02 '16 at 14:53
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    Everything one would want to know about how a smart phone works is available for free on the Internet. Can the same be said for this scheme? I didn't think so. – Todd Wilcox Aug 03 '16 at 03:36
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    Actually, there is a very simple mathematical principle that applies to all investment schemes that don't involve creating something: The money that goes in equals the money that comes out. That's a principle that no such scheme can overcome. No matter how complicated and and impossible to understand. You can only make money if you are someone who takes out more than they put in, which means there must be someone else who puts in more than they take out. But what makes you think you are the one who takes out more? – gnasher729 Aug 03 '16 at 10:20
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    @gnasher729: I offer you a property investment scheme—put money in, I'll buy some property and then sell it (when the market has gone up) and we'll split the gain. We didn't create anything, but got more out than we put in. By leveraging what we put in, we can get an even higher return. Pretty much every form of trading works this way on some level. – eggyal Aug 03 '16 at 12:52
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    I really don't mean to be indelicate, but...this person may not be your friend. At least, not anymore. Either (1) he actually knows full well this is a scam and his intent is to make money from others then get out before the whole thing is exposed or collapses, or (2) he's become so emotionally invested in this being a legitimate, honest thing that's going to improve his life that there may not be a lot more you can try to get him to see the truth. If it is the latter,it's--sadly--quite possible that he will reject any/all attempts to show him it's a scam until after it fails in the end. – mostlyinformed Aug 04 '16 at 05:17
  • @halfinformed I sadly can't say for sure if it is 1 or 2. He was one of the group I grew up with when we were youths and he always targeted being a self employed earning much money after he finished his training and worked on his job for years. – H. Idden Aug 04 '16 at 11:15
  • @CQM I believe it is 2 years. – atw Aug 04 '16 at 14:16
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    "Real" cryptocurrencies look like this: http://dogecoin.com/ Front page has links to downloads of the client. Despite having the Doge on it, you can get a real program that actually does stuff, and the people running it really, really want you to download and run the client since it strengthens the network. OneCoin has no such thing on its front page, and that would worry me a lot. It's very secretive about what it's actually doing, and that's not really how I'd expect a crypto to work. – Almo Aug 04 '16 at 21:16
  • What country is this? – Five Bagger Aug 05 '16 at 20:15
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    @FiveBagger Central Europe – H. Idden Aug 09 '16 at 20:35
  • People are replying with things like, "your friendship may be at risk" or "you may need to end your friendship to stop this." In my opinion, your friendship with this person is over -- you just don't know it yet. His entire life has become toxic and it can only end in tragedy. You don't want to be there when it happens. I believe, however, that you can't stand by while he spreads the scam to others and ruins their lives. Best of luck. – mtjhax Aug 26 '16 at 13:35
  • Leaving a comment as I cannot answer now. I was approached by one of my relatives, explaining how good the scheme is. It was kinda binary, where you have to get at least two referrals to get the bonus. I just explained him that the it will take just 32 levels deep tree to exhaust half the world's population, and leaving other half at the end with no one to refer and with no bonus. It made him think for a while, and couldn't support his own logic. – sidgate Sep 14 '16 at 00:32
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    Best video on MLMs (John Oliver, LWT) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6MwGeOm8iI – Turkish Feb 01 '17 at 12:11

15 Answers15

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Go to the police. This is fraud and it is illegal. Sure, this will hurt your friend, but it is better now then when he starts abusing his position to defraud even more people...

Original comment by Bakuriu, sorry for not giving credit.

Galactic
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abrad1212
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  • Good idea but I don't think I would be able to turn in a friend of mine ... – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 00:21
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    @H.Idden You need to stop him before he scams more people, sure it will be hard to turn him in, But you'll be saving other people and possibly your friend's life – abrad1212 Jul 31 '16 at 00:25
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    @H.Idden You aren't really turning him in. You are stopping him from making a bad situation much worse for himself. You may want to talk to him first. If he really thinks it's perfectly illegal, he shouldn't have an issue. Also warn him that recipients of fraudulent transfers, which are what these are, are on the hook to repay any funds they receive. Have him punch "clawback" into his favorite search engine. – David Schwartz Jul 31 '16 at 02:26
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    @H.Idden Your friend might not get charged if it's a first offense. Aside from which you'd be helping anyone else he might try to rope in and in the long run, it would help him by showing him these kinds of things are dodgy and to stay clear of them. It's probably fair to prove to him that it's illegal first and if he chooses to ignore it - then go to the police anonymously. – Pharap Jul 31 '16 at 03:00
  • @Pharap I agree – abrad1212 Jul 31 '16 at 03:34
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    I am willing to turn in his upline (the ones that invited him but even if I get their names the next problem is to prove the whole thing is illegal. The scam is known to police in about every Western country. There were even arrests in China and official anti-fraud authorities warn against it. But in Western countries they can't do anything without prove and the company has enough laywers to know how to rig everything that you can't prove them anything from outside. The company itself is in a country where the police will not do anything. – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 08:36
  • Even to access their official marketing material you need to be a paying member. – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 08:36
  • This is not necessarily a criminal matter just yet, so the police are unlikely to do anything, especially since you can't *prove* that anyone has lost one cent. You're right that this is a scam, but police don't act on our hunches or suspicions, so there's little chance they'd do anything at all. They don't like involving themselves in financial crimes unless there's clear and convincing evidence of a crime, and at the moment that piece is lacking. Sadly it won't be until someone does lose that this evidence might become available and therefore be actionable. – Daniel Anderson Jul 31 '16 at 15:08
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    The longer you wait, the more people your friend scams and the higher sentence he'll get. Abusing a position of authority will likely score him extra jail time. – Agent_L Aug 01 '16 at 10:31
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    Is this in the US? If so, wouldn't this sort of thing be more of a job for the FBI than local police? Their website https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime#Securities-and%20Commodities%20Fraud specifically calls out Ponzi schemes as one of the things they investigate. Also, obviously it's not just the OP's friend involved in this. The idea isn't to get him specifically busted, but whoever it was who started this scheme in the first place. The entire organization needs to be taken down. – Ajedi32 Aug 01 '16 at 15:27
  • @H.Idden Think about it from the other direction. You're saving your friend, not turning him in. The sooner you report this fraudulent scheme to the authorities, the sooner your friend is out of danger. As it stands, every day that goes by, your friend gets pulled in deeper and deeper into this scheme. From a law enforcement perspective, he may begin to look like someone who is conscious of the scheme, and deliberately is participating anyway. Before long, he may be risking jail time, or be on the hook for huge financial settlements. The sooner you act, the sooner you can save your friend. – SnakeDoc Aug 01 '16 at 16:31
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    How on earth is this the top-voted answer? Not only was this copied from a comment without any improvement (the correct verb is "defraud" by the way), it's not even correct as many MLM-schemes are legal. – Lilienthal Aug 02 '16 at 09:48
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    @Lilienthal That's why I didn't post this as an answer. It ought to integrate some more legal information. In any case: there is a difference between MLM-schemes and pyramid schemes (i.e. the former are legal, the latter aren't). From what the OP said I believe that his friend is in a pyramid scheme even though this "company" will try as hard as possible to make it look as MLM. – Bakuriu Aug 02 '16 at 20:48
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    In any case the problem is not whether the OP can prove anything. The problem is to let the authorities know of a possible fraud in action, that this person is involved and plan to involve other people. It's the authorities work to find out whether they can act or not, but it is important to at the very least be sure that this situation is known to the authorities, that they know who is involved and what is planning to do so that they might keep an eye. – Bakuriu Aug 02 '16 at 20:52
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    @Lilienthal answers should not be posted as comments on stackexchange anyway. It's perfectly fine for someone to write an answer even if the same info had been posted in comments. Also, answers should be taken as applying to the question, not some generalization of the question. (OP's particular scheme is surely illegal because there's no tangible product being sold) – M.M Aug 08 '16 at 05:06
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    @M.M I'm aware but even if it was wrong of Bakuriu to post a half-answer without context as a comment, that's no excuse for reposting that as an answer without credit or context. At the very least this should say "If this is illegal then X" instead of a broad sweep condemning this as illegal without any evidence to that fact, especially when it's clear that the poster is not familiar with the laws and jurisdictions involved. This is dangerously close to personalised legal advice that's off-bounds for any SE site. – Lilienthal Aug 08 '16 at 06:19
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If this is your friend, and he that convinced he will "get rich" from this then there's really nothing you CAN do. You've obviously done your best to explain the situation to him, but he's been caught up in their sales pitch, and that's more convincing to him.

I worked in sales for many years, and the answers he gives you (the one about not needing to know the details of how your smartphone works is a classic variation of typical objection-handling that salespeople are taught) proves that he has been sucked in by their scheme.

At this stage, all you're going to do is ruin your friendship with him if you continue to press the matter, because he has made it clear he can't be convinced that this is anything other than legitimate. The reality is, he is probably in too deep at this stage to just walk away from it, so he has to convince himself that he made a wise choice.

Schemes like this use a "scarcity" approach (there's only so much to go around, and if you don't get yours now then someone else will get it) coupled with ego-boosting (boy, Mr. Prospect, this is such a great opportunity, and you're one of only a few who are sophisticated enough to understand and take advantage of it) to get people to lower their guard and not ask a whole lot of probing questions.

Nobody wants to feel stupid, and they don't want others to think they're stupid, so these schemes will present the information in such a way that ordinarily prudent questions come across as sounding dumb, making the questioner seem not so smart. Rather than walking away from it, peoples' pride will sometimes make them double down on it, and they'll just go along with it to come across as though they get it, even when they really don't.

The small payouts at early stages are a classic sign of a Ponzi scheme. Your friend will never listen to you as long as those little checks continue to come in, because to him they're absolute proof he's right and you're wrong. It's those checks (or payouts, however they're doing it) that will make him step up his efforts to recruit other people into the scheme or, worse yet, invest more of his own money into this.

Keep in mind that in the end, you really have no power to do anything in this situation other than be his friend and try to use gentle persuasion. He's already made it clear that he isn't going to listen to your explanations about why this is a scam, for a couple reasons. First (and probably greatest), it would be an admission that he's dumb, or at least not as smart as you, and who wants that? Second, he continues to get little checks that reinforce the fact this must be "real", or why else would he be getting this money? Third, he has already demonstrated his commitment to this by quitting his job, so from his point of view, this has become an all-or-nothing ticket to wealth.

The bottom line is, these schemes work because the sales pitch is powerful enough to overcome ordinary logic for people who think there just has to be an easy way to Easy Street.

All you can do is just be there as his friend and hope that he sees the light before the damage (to himself and anyone else) gets too great. You can't stop him from what he's doing any more than you can stop the sun from rising as long the message (and checks) he's getting from other people keep him convinced he's on the right path.

EDIT

After reading the comments posted in this thread, I do want to amend my statements, because many good points have been raised here. You obviously can't just sit by and do nothing while your friend talks others into taking the same (or worse) risks that he is. That's not morally right by any measure

At the same time however, be VERY careful about how you go about this. Your friend, as you stated, sounds pretty much like he's all in with this scheme, so there's definitely going to be some serious emotional commitment to it on his part as well. Anyone and everything that threatens what he sees as his ticket to Easy Street could easily become a target when this all comes crashing down, as it inevitably will. You could very well be the cause of that in his eyes, especially if he knows you've been discouraging people from buying into this nightmare.

People are NOT rational creatures when it comes to money losses. It's called "sunken costs", where they'll continue to chase their losses on the rationale they'll make up for it if they just don't give up. The more your friend committed to this, the worse his anxieties about losing, so he'll do whatever he has to in order to save his position. This is what gamblers do and why the house does so well for itself.

Some have suggested making anonymous flyers or other means of communicating that don't expose you as the person spreading the message, and that's one suggestion. However, the problem with this is that since the receiver has no idea who sent the message, they're not likely to give it the kind of credibility or notice that they would to something passed to them by a person they know and trust, and your anonymous message will have little weight in the face of the persuasive pitch that got your friend to commit his own money (and future).

Another problem, as you've noted, is that you don't travel in the same circles as the people he's likely to recruit, so how would you go about warning them? How would they view their first contact with you when it comes with a message not to trust what someone else they already know is about to tell them? Would they write it off as someone who's butty? Hard to tell.

Another huge ploy of these schemes is that they tend to preemptively strike at what you propose doing -- that is, warning people to stay away. They do this by projecting the people giving the warnings as losers who didn't see the opportunity for themselves and now want to keep others away from their own financial success. They'll portray you as someone who isn't smart enough to see this "huge opportunity", and since you can't understand it, you don't think anyone else does either. They'll point out that if you were so good with finances, why aren't you already successful?

These guys are very good, and they have an answer for every objection you can raise, whether its to them or to someone else. They've spent a long time honing their message, which makes it difficult for anyone to say something persuasive enough to sway others away from being duped. This is a hard path, no doubt.

I hope you are able to warn others away. Just be aware that it may come at a cost to you as well, and be prepared for what that might be.

I hope this helps.

Good luck!

Daniel Anderson
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    One small point: the OP's friend could also be on the hook to return those small checks, if they were paid out as part of a Ponzi scheme and not as a return on an investment... – DJohnM Jul 30 '16 at 15:32
  • Excellent point, and one I didn't think of. Thank you for saying that! – Daniel Anderson Jul 30 '16 at 15:34
  • @DJohnM Those were withdrawels to his own bank account or what do you mean? Another point they made to reduce withdawels was, that one needs to reinvest about 50% of the money earned for multiple months until it earns again and from that you need to reinvest 50% again. The official reason is that sudden investing and withdrawel of high sums would make the "startup" too unstable. Or do you think he somehow needs to pay them back what was transferred to his bank account? – H. Idden Jul 30 '16 at 17:18
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    @H.Idden Your friend might have to pay all "return of investment" checks back after the police closes this ponzi scheme in future, because they are profit from his illegal activities. But this obviously depends on the local laws, and the court decision in this particular case. –  Jul 30 '16 at 17:38
  • @Ville-ValtteriTiittanen So he will not only not get back his whole existence he invested but also need to pay back all the money he "earned" to get back his investment? That's double fubar. – H. Idden Jul 30 '16 at 18:09
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    I disagree with this answer. The question indicates the "friend" intends to use his position in community groups to recruit others into the network. Even if there is nothing that can be done to save the friend, there may be something that can be done to prevent others from being scammed as well. How much should be done in this area depends on an assessment of how vulnerable the target audience is, how much the friend's endorsement will sway them, and how much the friendship is valued, but this entire dimension of the situation is unaddressed in your answer. – BrenBarn Jul 30 '16 at 18:18
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    BrenBarn, the problem is that what you propose is a guarantee of a lost friendship (the friend has already clearly stated this is not a subject for discussion and has already created a problem), with no assurance that anyone will listen to advice or reason either. People have to make their own decisions, ask their own questions, and sometimes make their own mistakes. All that can be done is to advise people to be careful and hope that's sufficient warning for them to think about it before they get themselves involved. You DO make a good and valid point, though. – Daniel Anderson Jul 30 '16 at 20:16
  • @BrenBarn actually I disagree with you. In this day and age, our world is so thick with scams that everyone needs to be able to spot them a mile away. OP's friend's friends ought to know better, and shouldn't need any help. Even if they do, they would resist hearing it from OP, and it ain't his job to protect them from themselves. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jul 30 '16 at 22:52
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  • @KeithMcClary - I'm sure there will be stories of people who got their profit, paid tax, paid for 4 years of college, or bought a home, and now have to pay back money they no longer have. A great link, thx. – JTP - Apologise to Monica Jul 31 '16 at 23:33
  • @DanielAnderson I don't think I could be friends with a scammer anyways, so the lost friendship is a foregone conclusion. – CodesInChaos Aug 05 '16 at 10:08
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    @CodesInChaos Could you be friends with an idiot? He doesn't think it's a scam so he doesn't see himself as scamming anybody. Technically, yes, he's a scammer, but he's ignorant rather than malicious, which may (or not) be enough of a distinction. – Anthony Grist Aug 08 '16 at 13:41
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I will disagree with some of the other answers here. In my view, the most important dimension of the situation is not your friend's potential loss but the potential losses of the people he may convince by using his position as youth group leader, etc., to draw more them into the scam.

Exactly how to handle this depends on many factors that aren't mentioned in your question (and probably rightly so, as this aspect of the situation moves beyond personal finance). For instance, if your friend is a "pillar of the community" who is widely trusted, and you are not, there may be little you can do, since people will believe him and not you. If you have some influence over the groups he is trying to recruit, you can attempt to provide a counterweight to his recruitment activities.

Again, how to do this depends on other factors, such as how he is recruiting them. If he is just privately contacting individuals and inviting them to these meetings, you may have to just keep your eyes peeled for anyone who seems tempted and try to dissuade them before they suffer the "brainwashing". If he actually tries to do some sort of public recruitment (e.g., holding a meeting himself), you could try to inject doubt by, e.g., attending and asking probing questions to expose the dangers. If you think the danger is widespread, you could consider taking some more public action, like writing a column in a local paper about this organization.

Of course, another major factor is how much you think people stand to lose by this. However, in your question you indicated that your friend has invested "multiple month or years of income". If he intends to pressure others to invest similar amounts, this sounds to me like enough danger to warrant some preventive action. Few people can afford to lose months or years of income, and sadly those most vulnerable to a scammer's siren song are often those who can least afford it. It doesn't sound like a situation where you'd have to devote your life to the cause of stopping it, but if I knew that dozens of people in my community stood to lose years of income, I'd want to make at least a small effort to stop them, rather than just keep my mouth shut.

In doing this, you may lose your friendship. However, you stated that your goal is to resolve the situation in a way that is "best with lowest loss of money for everybody". If you really take this utilitarian view, it is likely that you may have to give up on the friendship to prevent other people from losing more money.

BrenBarn
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  • I can only tell for one of the communities since I don't have connections to the others. He is more a honorable member since he is out of the age but he still regularly joins them to help them with his knowledge, experience and his help and he has been the leader for many years before. So most of the current members respect him. I am about the same age as him but I have only lose contact to some of the members. I can try to talk to the current leaders at the next opportunity. He wants to make the meeting in the club house, – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 00:04
  • most likely connected to a regular meeting of the community with a professional speaker from the company. The investments start from 100$ and the most promoted investment is 5000$. Most of the members of the youth community either earn nothing because they attend school or between 300 and 1300$. I already tried raising objections at the meeting I have been but they were trained answers for every question I asked (from purely invented reasons to "you don't know the details to sell it). – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 00:11
  • I will think about how I can warn them without directly exposing myself. – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 00:14
  • @H.Idden You could create anonymous fliers. You just need to include an eye-catch and then a more detailed description of the danger, and mention that even smart people have been tricked. You can place some of them in stalls in public restrooms to catch people when they're more likely to be bored. To protect anonymity, you'd need to imagine what would happen if someone else had posted the fliers, then act like that happened. You saw them around. Someone else is on your side. Maybe you even picked some up off a stack to share when discussing it. – Keen Jul 31 '16 at 03:29
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    Just be cautious that this doesn't somehow boomerang back onto you, H.Idden. With what your friend has already invested, he has so much at stake that there's no telling how he'll react when he learns you're "undermining" (in his eyes) his ticket to financial riches. When this all comes falling down, you could be the one he blames, since you kept him from recruiting the people he believes he needs to reach his goal. This is a VERY touchy situation, and I agree with others you can't sit idly by and do nothing, but help with your own eyes wide open to the potential dangers for you. – Daniel Anderson Jul 31 '16 at 12:50
  • @Keen Doing this anonymous would be very hard since I am one of only a few who know about this in this area and there are not many places where I can place it where it would be read and it wouldn't be clear that it was most likely me. But another friend mentioned that he got invited and I told him the name of it (which was not stated in the invitation) and that there are official warning that this is a scam so they can inform themself before the meeting. – H. Idden Aug 04 '16 at 09:22
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Even though this is really a psychology question, I'll try to give you an answer. You do nothing but stay away.

What's going on is too small to matter. Bernie Madoff took investor's money and scammed them for $15B. That's B, billion, 9 zeros (Yes, I realize the UK Billion has 12, these are US Billion). Harry Markopolos was on to him, and presented his evidence to the government, but "No one would listen." In quotes because that's the title of the book he published on his experience. Even Barron's had an article suggesting that Madoff's returns were impossible. Eventually, it came to light.

In my own experience, there was a mortgage acceleration product called "Money Merge Account." It claimed to help you pay off your mortgage in a fraction of the time "with no change to your budget." For two years or so, I was obsessed with exposing this scam, and wrote articles, nearly every week discussing every aspect of this product. Funny how even though mortgages are math that's pretty easy to explain, few sellers wanted to talk about the math. Using the same logic that you don't need to understand how a car works as long as you know how to drive. There were some people that would write to tell me I saved them the $3500 cost of that product, but mostly I argued with sellers who dismissed every word I wrote as if the math were incomprehensible to anyone but the software guys who wrote it. In the end, I had compiled a PDF with over 60 pages of my writing on the topic, and decided to call it quits. The product was recycled and now is sold as "Worth Unlimited," but the software is the same.

This is all a tangent to your problem. It simply offers the fact that the big scam, Bernie, continued for a long time, and people who were otherwise intelligent, fell for his promises, and didn't want to believe otherwise. The mortgage software had many bloggers writing. Searching on the web found a lot of discussion, very easy to find.

People will believe what they wish. Tell an Atheist that God exists, or a believer that He doesn't, and your words will fall on deaf ears. Unfortunately, this is no different.

JTP - Apologise to Monica
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    Ole Bernie Madoff would probably still be going strong if it hadn't been for the economic downturn of 2008 that forced so many people to seek redemptions from him to cover their other losses and margin calls. I'm going to download and read your PDF because I'm curious, Joe! – Daniel Anderson Jul 30 '16 at 14:49
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    @DanielAnderson - IIFC, at first I thought the product was just not ideal, but not a scam. Over time, the more I read, my views changed to full scam. The evolution of the process is evident in the PDF. It's interesting, but a tedious read. – JTP - Apologise to Monica Jul 30 '16 at 14:52
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    I once worked for the mortgage division of Lehman Brothers, so I was familiar with the concept that people bought into about paying off mortgages early for the same monthly payment by paying their mortgage in two bi-weekly installments rather than one monthly, which supposedly changed the interest calculation and dramatically lowered the overall amount the borrower would pay in the long run. I'm interested to read your stuff to see if it tracks with that and what your analysis on it is. – Daniel Anderson Jul 30 '16 at 15:05
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    If their official figures and other sources are correct they have multiple millions of investors and more than 1 million $ of turn over each month running for 2 years now (I don't know if real money or the virtual money of investors that can't be fully withdrawn). So it aims to the same size I am frightened. I will read your pdf later because it will take some time. I think I will need to expect to call him a friend of the past now because I have no other choice and I don't want the others (especially teenagers) get scammed too and they have "investment packages" of 100-100000$ – H. Idden Jul 30 '16 at 18:02
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    I don't agree that this is too small to matter, or that you can't dissuade others. The friend has invested "multiple months or years of income". That is a lot of money for the victims involved. It's true there may be fewer victims than in the Madoff case, but the damage to each victim may still be significant. Also, it's likely that the OP can have more of an effect than people writing anti-Madoff books/columns, if he focuses on his local community, and especially on those who have not yet drunk the kool-aid. His local voice could be a meaningful force against the local voice of his "friend". – BrenBarn Jul 30 '16 at 18:37
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    You're right, bad wording on my part. Still, I wonder if the authorities would act on this. – JTP - Apologise to Monica Jul 30 '16 at 18:40
  • There's only one way to find out. – Tracy Cramer Aug 02 '16 at 20:17
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    @DanielAnderson It's absolutely true that paying bi-monthly or early in any way will pay off your mortage faster (with payments near the beginning having much greater weight than those near the end). However, this in practice this works if and only if you have been able to explicitly ensure or arrange that the creditor will apply any extra/early payments to your account as soon as they are received, and not just apply them to the next due payment as of that payment's due date (legal, and common practice). – ErikE Aug 06 '16 at 00:23
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    @ErikE - biweekly effectively creates 13 full payments a year, or 8% more money paid. That's the 'secret' of biweekly. – JTP - Apologise to Monica Aug 06 '16 at 00:28
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    Correct, ErikE, and therein lies the problem. Most mortgage companies are savvy about this, so they include provisions in their mortgage documents prohibiting the practice, because it severely limits their ability to sell the loan to someone else if it can be paid off early enough to negate a big chunk of the interest. Very good point, though! – Daniel Anderson Aug 06 '16 at 00:28
  • Good point, Joe. Upvotes for both of you! (smile) – Daniel Anderson Aug 06 '16 at 00:29
  • @JoeTaxpayer I wasn't thinking about how bi-weekly is not twice a month. You will pay off your loan faster even with twice a month, assuming the payments are credited immediately, and interest is compounded daily. If those aren't true, then you're wasting your time and energy. Most home loans are not compounded daily... – ErikE Aug 06 '16 at 00:32
  • @ErikE - say your payment is $2000 at 6%. $1000 1/2 month early is worth $5. $60/yr saved. It adds up over 30 years, but won't do more than knock off 2 payments or so, at the end. If and only if, the bank allowed this. – JTP - Apologise to Monica Aug 06 '16 at 00:44
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    @JoeTaxpayer How surprising. A 30-year loan of $338,739.07 at 6% fixed yearly, compounded daily but calculated only when a payment is applied (using the maximum precision of my calculating tool but rounding interest to the nearest cent when it is charged, on the date of a payment), credited on the 1st and 15th only saves $2,568.27 and pays off the loan 1 month early with a final payment of $431.69. It's still a worthwhile amount of money to save if you get paid twice a month. But it's very unlikely for mortgage interest to be compounded daily. – ErikE Aug 06 '16 at 01:58
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First, there are MLM businesses that are legitimate and are not Ponzi schemes; I actually work with one (I will not name it lest I give the impression of trying to sell here).

One thing I learned was how to respond when a prospect raises objections related to the actual scams, which are abundant; the answer being to point out, and you mentioned this yourself, that in an illegitimate scheme, there is no actual product being offered - the only thing money is ever spent on is the expectation of a future profit.

Ask your friend, "Would you buy the product this company sells, at the price they ask, if there were not a financial opportunity attached to it?"

If not, "How can you expect anyone else to buy it from you?" There are only 3 ways he can respond to this question: he can realize that you're right and get out now; he can change the subject to the concept of making money by climbing the ranks and earning off of a salesforce, in which case it's time to educate him on Ponzi; or he can claim to be able to sell something he doesn't believe in, in which case you should run fat, far away.

If he does indicate that he would be a customer even without the chance to sell the product, then offer him the chance to prove it, by giving you one sales pitch on the condition that he is not allowed to breathe a word about joining the business. Do him the courtesy of listening with an open mind, and decide for yourself whether you could ever be a customer. If the possibility exists, even if not today, he has found one of the few legitimate MLM companies, and you should not try to stop him. If not, you'll have to determine whether it's because the product just isn't for you, or because it's inherently worthless, and whether you should encourage or discourage your friend going forward.

Dan Henderson
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    +1, but see the comment to the question. There is no product. – JTP - Apologise to Monica Jul 30 '16 at 23:57
  • No there is no real product but it is faked so good a person without deeper knowledge in this field would think the product is real. The product only exists in their virtual account of the company. – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 00:20
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    It sounds to me like there is a product, though it's obvious that OP perceives the product as worthless (and maybe it is). But the description given, "virtual currency which is only tradeable on the website of the owner", could easily be applied to e.g. Xbox points. We can attribute a value to them based on the point costs vs. cash prices of Xbox games, but the points have no inherent value and can only be used in the Xbox store. – Dan Henderson Jul 31 '16 at 01:02
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    @DanHenderson But with the Xbox store, there is a product (Games, content, etc.) – Fiksdal Jul 31 '16 at 06:57
  • @Fiksdal see OP's comment on the question, as well as mine. – Dan Henderson Jul 31 '16 at 07:23
  • Right. I guess OP has to clarify what this virtual currency can actually be used for. @H.Idden – Fiksdal Jul 31 '16 at 07:38
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    @Fiksdal It is not tradable outside the company and you cannot buy anything but both coming "soon" (since 2 years) except since recently for an item which usally costs 1% of the price anywhere else, so more or less a pseudo product. – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 08:16
  • @H.Idden Thanks for clarifying. In that case, I think it's different from Xbox points, since you could actually buy games and stuff (real services) with the Xbox points. – Fiksdal Jul 31 '16 at 08:17
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    @H.Idden ok, thanks for clarifying. In that case, this answer does work - you'd be asking your friend "Would you still buy this virtual currency, which can't yet be exchanged for anything, for the price they ask for it, if it didn't have the promise of being able to [insert alleged profit avenue] attached to it?" and continue as described. – Dan Henderson Jul 31 '16 at 08:34
  • I already raised similar questions but he believes the company that you could buy with it everywhere like with your credit card "soon" and that it will be better accepted than bitcoin. – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 19:45
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    @H.Idden if he sincerely believes that, then he might actually earn some of his money back, or even turn a profit, depending on a variety of factors, including his skill, his level of effort, and whether the company ever achieves their goals (it's possible that the company really expects to do so). "Better accepted than Bitcoin" isn't unrealistic; "than AmEx" might be. Don't buy it if you don't agree, caution him against investing more than he can afford to lose, assure him that you're still his friend even though you aren't interested in this venture, and your conscience will be clear. – Dan Henderson Jul 31 '16 at 21:30
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    Possible but unlikely that they expect to since the founders are known names in Ponzi schemes or convicted in crimes like fraudulent bankruptcy and many of their claim are technically impossible or proven to not exist with very high propability according to sites about ponzi schemes. But of course "Every bigger company had their scandals". – H. Idden Aug 01 '16 at 09:50
  • Surely selling something one does not believe in is a regular job of salespeople around the world? – gerrit Aug 01 '16 at 10:16
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    @gerrit Not in my personal experience. I never found that I could sell anything I didn't believe in. Not every salesperson is a manipulator, any more than every non-salesperson is a paragon of integrity. I've spent the last 25 years selling something I very much believe in: my time. – BobRodes Aug 01 '16 at 18:52
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    @H.Idden I did look it up. There's no rate of exchange listed for them on coinmarketcap (surprise, surprise). This article pretty much says it all. :) – BobRodes Aug 01 '16 at 19:05
  • @H.Idden that information about the founders might be a good thing to add to the question. – Dan Henderson Aug 02 '16 at 00:36
  • @gerrit such a salesperson tends to give off nonverbal signals of their insincerity. Not everyone perceives them, but enough do that they are effectively lowering their customer pool. An effective salesperson will either seek out products they can get behind, or convince themselves of the merits of their chosen product before they try to convince others. – Dan Henderson Aug 02 '16 at 01:55
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    @BobRodes, the bit from that article quoting the OneCoin website would be a good thing to show the Original Poster's friend. 'At the bottom of the terms and conditions on the OneCoin website are two tell-tale phrases. The first is: “The company does not warrant that product descriptions or other content is accurate, complete, reliable, current, or error-free.” The second: “The company reserves the right to, at any given time, change the OneCoin Compensation Plan.”' Unfortunately, the OneCoin website doesn't say those phrases so clearly, so the friend might not get the point. – Wildcard Aug 02 '16 at 18:39
  • @Wildcard I agree. :) – BobRodes Aug 02 '16 at 22:23
  • "Later I found its name on the official scam warning list of multiple countries." this one is definitely a scam though. – ave Aug 03 '16 at 16:55
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So here's the sad truth. He might actually be making a return on his investment. Not because it's right or because the system works, but in all these schemes there are a range of people that actually do make money.

In addition to that, there is that fact that he "believes" that he is doing a good thing, and is unwilling to discuss it.

So, if he is making, even a tiny return, and really believes that he is making a large return, or that that large return is just around the bend, your never going to convince him otherwise.

You have two real options;

  1. If he will listen, go though and look at money in v.s. money out. If money out is larger then money in, your screwed. Make sure to point out that he should look at real money in (left a bank account) and real money out (deposited to a bank account). Again be prepared for the fact that he is actually making money. Some people in the pyramid will make money, it's just never as much, or as many people as they make it out to be. Don't attack the system, attack other aspects. Try and argue liquidity, or FDIC insurance. Again not trying to show why the system is bad, but why a investment in foo instead may be better. If nothing else, go with diversify. Never put all your money in one spot, even if it's a really good spot. At least in that case he will have some money left over in the end. That said, your friend may not go for it. May just put on blinders, and may just stick finger in ears. Move to option two.

  2. Respect his wishes, and set boundaries. "Ok, I hear you, you like system X, I won't bring it up again. Do me a favor, don't you bring it up again either. Let's just leave this with religion and politics." If he continues to bring it up, then when he does, just point out you agreed not to discuss the issue, and if he continues to push it, rethink your friendship. If you both respect one another, you should be able to respect each others' decisions. If you can't then, sadly, you may need to stop spending time with one another.

coteyr
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  • In the first month he made 5 times of the original invested small sum which he reinvested. At least on his virtual account at the company he made at least 4 digit figures through his "investments". I don't know if and how much he withdraw but it can't be much because of the current limits for withdrawel in this scheme (1% of the earnings) – H. Idden Jul 30 '16 at 17:25
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    Unless you can get him to focus on Withdraws and Deposits from his bank account, there's not much you can do. – coteyr Jul 30 '16 at 18:44
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    the thing is, even if he is profitable, the likely time investment/pissed off friends greatly outweighs the profit...spending 40 hours to make $300 is a bad use of time except to the MLM guy....he sees it as his effort starting to show fruit. – deek Jul 30 '16 at 19:53
  • Sadly since he wants to maximize his earnings he rather reinvests than withdraw the money – H. Idden Jul 30 '16 at 23:53
  • But in the end, and this is the truly important thing, it's his money, and he can waste it how he sees fit. If you can't respect that then your a "crappy friend". It doesn't mean you have to support him in what YOU feel is his mistake, but it does mean you need to respect his right to make that mistake. If he won't see your side of the argument, then respect his wishes and stop arguing. – coteyr Aug 01 '16 at 18:21
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    @H.Idden So basically, his returns are virtual. An example: He gives the "company" $100. They respond, "Great, you just increased your investment 5-fold, so you now have $500. You may withdraw $5." He is still down $95, because his returns are not liquid. – GalacticCowboy Aug 01 '16 at 18:41
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I believe the only thing you haven't mentioned to him is the possibility that his activity is criminally fraudulent. I would sit him down, and say something substantially similar to the following:

We've talked about your investment before, and I know you believe it's fine. I just want to make sure you understand that this is very likely fraudulent activity. I know you believe in it, but you've said you don't understand how or why it works. The problem with that is that if it is a fraud you can't protect yourself from criminal prosecution because you didn't understand what you were doing. The prosecutor will ask you if you asked others to give you or the organization money, and then they will convict you based on trying to defraud others. It doesn't matter whether you did it on purpose, or just because you believed the people you are investing in.

So I very strongly advise you to understand exactly what the system is, and how it works, and then make sure with a lawyer that it's legal. If it is, then hey, you've learned something valuable. But if it's not, then you will save yourself a whole lot of trouble and anguish down the road if you step away before someone you attract to the investment decides to talk to their accountant or lawyer. A civil lawsuit may be bad, but if you're criminally prosecuted it will be so much worse.

Now that I've said my piece, I won't talk to you about it anymore or bother you about it. I wish you luck, and hope that things work out fine.

I wouldn't talk to the police or suggest that I'd do anything of that nature, without proof then there's no real way to start an investigation anyway, and unfortunately scams like this are incredibly hard to investigate, so the police often spend little to no time on them without a high level insider giving up evidence and associates. Chances are good nothing would happen to your friend - one day the organization will disappear and he won't recover any more money - but there's a distinct possibility that when that happens, the people below him will come for him, and he won't be able to look further up the chain for help.

Perhaps the threat of illegal activity will be enough to prevent him from defrauding others, but if not I think at least you can let it go, and know that you've done everything for him that might work.

Adam Davis
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  • I will try it but since he didn't believe me that the whole thing is fake the chances to accept it is fraudulent are slim. – H. Idden Jul 31 '16 at 08:46
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The title of your question basically asks:

What can I do?

And you state this regarding the meeting and “advice” they gave towards criticism of their method:

While this they also indoctrinated that you should avoid talking to people talking bad about it (or say it is scam) because you gain no money from them and they just want to destroy your business.

First, you really cannot do anything to “save” your friend if they have bought this nonsense. You are right, it’s a scam. But past stating as such to your friend, there is not much you can do past shielding yourself.

The reality is this: Any scenario you are in where you cannot ask basic questions and get a reasonable response or are given—at least—the option to walk away unscathed or uninsulated is basically a cult-like mentality. Simple as that. If the first thing someone tells you is “Don’t listen to others, just listen to me…” then you need to excuse yourself to go to the bathroom or something and just leave.

From my personal experience meeting people who are successful and have power, they always—and I mean always—ask questions and are critical of things they invest in… Whether that investment is time, money or just basic mental energy. Rich people are just like you and me! Except they have more money so they can take bigger risks. Critical thinking and the ability to walk away from something are key life skills.

Now others have talked salesman psychology which is on point. But here is something else you brought up in your question:

He also wants to use his position as respected member of multiple local youth and other communities to get their members as referals or in his words “…to give them the oppurtunity to also simply earn money.”

Okay, so you can set personal boundaries between you and this clown, but you cannot stop him. But if he plans on targeting people and organizations in your community, you can warn them about him and his behavior and this scam. Chances are other people will know right away it’s a scam, but honestly if you feel the need to help others, that’s the most reasonable thing you can do to help them.

But whatever you do, don’t take any of this emotional crap personally. If anything, maybe you can learn some reverse salesman techniques to get this “friend” to disengage. Such as only meeting with them in public and if they say something really vile to you, repeating what they said back to them as a question… Maybe even louder so everyone can hear. Remember a harsh reality of life: Public shaming can work to change someone’s behavior but you never want to do something like that unless you have utterly no choice.

That last bit of advice is pretty harsh, but the reality is at some point you need to do something to “smack” reality into the situation.

Giacomo1968
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  • With the last sentence do you mean let him continue until he fails hard because he cannot sell to enough people? – H. Idden Jul 30 '16 at 17:21
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    @H.Idden Nope I’m not saying that. Your comment still shows you are connecting yourself to him. Here is the reality in a nutshell: You alone will never change this guy’s mind. You with an army will not change this guy’s mind. The last sentence is advice from me to you on how you must establish boundaries between you and this person because they will become toxic to your life. Your desire to help them is admirable, but you need to think of this as someone who is jumping in front of a train and has tied a rope to you: You need to cut that rope and face they fact that their fate is not yours. – Giacomo1968 Jul 30 '16 at 21:17
  • Yes (and also some others after I discussed my research with them) made clear to him that we are not interested in it. – H. Idden Jul 30 '16 at 23:56
  • @H.Idden Well, like I said at some point in a relationship—whether it is deep or superficial—you need to make a decision. And honestly, my advice stands: You need to cut this guy off and only offer help to him if he’s willing to help himself. – Giacomo1968 Jul 31 '16 at 04:34
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As others have stated, it will be very difficult for you to turn your friend around. He has already demonstrated great commitment.

What can I do?

There may be other people (perhaps mutual friends of you and this man) who are in danger. He may try to get them into this (as he apparently tried to with you). If this was me, I would try to warn the mutual friends of me and him. It's easier to get to them before they have been exposed to the brainwashing.

So I would:

  1. Make it clear to my friend that I think it's unwise to engage in this "business" and that I'm likely to warn anyone involved in such activities. Make a small attempt to convince him (while being prepared for it to fail.)
  2. Call mutual friends to warn them. (Being willing to risk this spoiling the friendship between me and him, if those friends tell him about the calls.)
  3. Does this man have a wife or girlfriend? Never underestimate the power of a woman close to a man. She probably knows about the activity, but she's probably only heard about it from his perspective, so she might not know what it actually is. Tell her the truth about it. (Again, this may very well spoil your friendship with him.) But she deserves to know. She may even be one of the few people who can have a slim chance of getting through to him.

Yes, I realize this means you're going behind his back, talking to his friends, etc. But I believe these people also deserve to be warned. They are in danger of being adversely affected by what he is doing.

Fiksdal
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    +1 for point three, that's good and potentially workable advice. Too bad it didn't work in this case per @H.Idden's comment. – Wildcard Aug 02 '16 at 18:46