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I understand in a startup that has not created revenue yet, if the “future” is predicted to be bad for the company, the value of the company only would drastically go down (for the only worth was on future hopes). However, in an established company that has made a lot of money in the past, shouldn’t all that money have been added to the value?

Imagine you were a real partner with Netflix or a similar company, and collected your share every year. You would have made lots of money in the past.

Peter Mortensen
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Jack
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    Netflix isn't all that profitable, and in fact was losing a lot of money for a very long time. – littleadv Oct 19 '22 at 16:18
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    😊yeh just looked through its financials probably the worst company to ask on – Jack Oct 19 '22 at 18:44
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    "Past performance is no guarantee of future results" – jcaron Oct 20 '22 at 14:29
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    If I am selling my stake now, why would someone else give more money for it just because I (hypothetically) made a lot of money on it in the past? They don't get that past money when they buy the current stake. – jjanes Oct 20 '22 at 15:29
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    Until a few years ago, the Netflix strategy was often described as "burn giant bags of cash" and "throwing shit at the wall and see what sticks". It wasn't profitable for a long time and arguably demonstrated unsound practices. –  Oct 20 '22 at 17:35
  • I'll still be betting on Usain Bolt when he's 90 then – Turbo Oct 21 '22 at 14:06
  • Sears used to be very profitable, and it stock price reflected that. In the modern shopping trend, its profits are mostly non-existent, and it is on the verge of disappearance. Would you pour money into its stock based on past performance? (Sadly, I will miss Sears, and I was disappointed as it sold the brands that made it, e.g. Craftsman.) – Ron Maupin Oct 22 '22 at 20:21

5 Answers5

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Imagine three companies you might buy shares in. Remember - shares represent a % of ownership of the company, and the net profits it will produce in the future.

Company A is just a closet full of cash - let's say $10M.

Company B is a movie studio that just spent all of its money, $10M, to produce a film that is about to release to theaters.

Company C is a movie studio that just spent half of its money to produce a film, and also has $5M of cash earned from its last film.

You know exactly what Company A is worth ($10M). If Company B's release goes well, it might be worth exceptionally more than $10M, or it might be a flop worth nothing. Company C has some known value (net assets in cash), and some unknown value (the yet-to-be-released film).

How Company B & C are valued, is based on the market's expectation of how much it will earn in the future. For a company like Netflix, its share price implies an expectation that future earnings will exceed its current net assets - so if it stops earning new money, the share price would drop to reflect something closer to what it has now in the bank.

*Your misunderstanding is from the fact that the share price today is not based on current asset value, it is based on what future earnings are expected, and therefore any drop in expected earnings would decrease current share price, which is already elevated to account for that.

{Edited to add clarification per a later question you asked, here: (DCF valuation) Will the cashflows (per share) of company XYZ, every year in the future (2023...) be added up and go into its shares price every yr

Note that in theory, some 'excess' assets of a company, not involved in its ongoing operations [like a vacant piece of land it no longer uses, or excess cash not needed to ensure things get paid on time], might need to be added to its estimated value, above its future estimated cashflows. However for the most part, a simple rule of thumb would be to assume a company needs all of its assets in order to make that future value. Simple example - Netflix can't earn subscription revenue from people who only want to watch Stranger Things, and also make $100M by selling it to someone else - so if you tried to add the potential 'selling price' of Stranger Things to your estimate of NFLX's future cashflows, you would end up double-counting its impact.}

To drive this point home further: You think that because Netflix was profitable in the past, it should be worth a lot even if its future earnings are in doubt. Netflix is not a great company to make this point:

Total earnings over the past 5 years per https://ycharts.com/companies/NFLX/net_income is about $15B. Current market cap is about $123B. That current market cap is almost entirely based on the market's idea that future earnings will occur. Netflix's current assets are about 45B, and it has debt of 28B, so less than $20B of net assets to attribute to shareholders [who have invested something like $30B to date, per my brief look at the financials].

Grade 'Eh' Bacon
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    But you are (mostly) not receiving the earnings in the future (especially when there are no dividends or buybacks) if you received all the earnings tha the company will make in the future I would understand.(to my simple Understanding since the company made more money it’s value grew so it’s worth more) – Jack Oct 19 '22 at 18:43
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    @jack It is a common misconception that shareholders don't "really" get the value of a company, and that dividends are basically paid at the whim of the company's CEO, but in reality, company profits after paying off debts are attributable solely to the shareholders. Whether they are paid out annually as dividends or only in the future, is not relevant. There are many questions about this on the site - see for example here: https://money.stackexchange.com/q/51976/44232 – Grade 'Eh' Bacon Oct 19 '22 at 18:53
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    I'll offer you $3.50 for company A, cash here and now.... – Criggie Oct 19 '22 at 21:24
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    @Jack The basic idea is that even if a company doesn't pay any dividends it just means that the same money is put in the coffers of the company (company A), thus increasing the value of the company proportionally and thus also 'your' (if you believe and have faith in the idea of stock market ownership) money. – David Mulder Oct 20 '22 at 05:53
  • @DavidMulder ... which you can get back in dividends or liquidation later. Important to note that. I wouldn't pay a cent for $1000 of "my" money if there was no chance of getting it back, no matter how many times you called it "mine" – user253751 Oct 20 '22 at 19:23
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    @Jack The core theory of value investing is that a company is worth its future stream of earnings discounted for time plus existing net asset values. The reasoning is that management will distribute earnings as dividends, or by buying back shares (increasing your percentage ownership of current and future earnings), or reinvesting it at reasonable returns. If run by a CEO who throws away earnings in terrible investments or a controlling shareholder who diverts earnings to their own pockets, not true. But those are rare situations. – SafeFastExpressive Oct 21 '22 at 00:05
  • @user253751 If you buy a house it doesn't pay you dividends, but in the future you can sell it for less or more. It's 'exactly' the same with stock (but stock is of course more liquid, but the ownership relation is... more nuanced) – David Mulder Oct 21 '22 at 06:07
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    @DavidMulder Home ownership is not equivalent to stock ownership. The difference is that a company is hopefully productive with its assets - homes are depreciating assets requiring maintenance to maintain value, except for the fact that the value of the house (and especially the land it sits on) will rise and fall based on supply and demand in the local area. – Grade 'Eh' Bacon Oct 21 '22 at 13:43
  • @SafeFastExpressive - This formula is why Tesla's shares are so low. They persistently miss their earnings targets, are beset by supply shortages and their competition is eating heavily into their (fairly limited to begin with) market share. – Valorum Oct 22 '22 at 18:10
  • @Valorum I'm not sure I would necessarily call a $670bn market cap "low" for a company with $68bn-revenue and $10bn-profit – BeB00 Oct 22 '22 at 21:29
  • @BeB00 - Yes. Dat is the joke – Valorum Oct 22 '22 at 21:33
  • @SafeFastExpressive And if it is reinvesting and purchasing assets (lets assume that are "liquid") does the value also increase because of that? – Jack Oct 23 '22 at 02:00
  • @user253751 but with stocks isn't that how it usually is. Most companies you aren't getting ALL your money back through dividends , rather (hopefully) selling the shares at a higher price. – Jack Oct 23 '22 at 02:06
  • So I don't understand, a companies value , is its future cashflows (discounted back plus its current cashflows). And lets assume you have a 10 year time horizon , after 10 years the value of the company does not reflect the past 10 years cashflow!? (if every year , its value increases based off that years cashflow , and at the end of the 10 years , all the past cashflows were part of its valuation. I would understand) p.s thanks every for helping out – Jack Oct 23 '22 at 02:17
  • @jack you might have a '10 year time horizon', but market price isn't just what YOU are willing to pay for a share - it is the collectively agreed price by all participants in the market. Most large public companies are valued in a way that factors in faaaaar more than just 10 years of dividends. And because you can't perfectly predict the future, it is quite natural that the past 10 years won't equal what the market assumed it would in the past 10 years. This is where 'market sentiment' can start to break away from calculable value, if a significant number of investors are overly optimistic. – Grade 'Eh' Bacon Oct 24 '22 at 13:14
  • Simplistic dividend valuation model would be: Share Value = Annual Dividends / (Required Return - Company Growth). If you start with annual dividends of $1 / share per year, and the required return [basically how much riskier the company is compared to a 'risk free' government bond] is, say, 10%, and the Company Growth is estimated at 3%, then estimated share value would be $1 / .07 = $14.2. Notice that 10 years of dividends would only be $10 received slowly over time, so this model does not only count the next 10 years of dividends. Again - this is overly simplistic to give you an idea. – Grade 'Eh' Bacon Oct 24 '22 at 13:18
  • @DavidMulder according to that (if a company doesn’t pay dividends it’s worth the same) then each years cash flows should go into the stocks value. Year 1 - $1 FCF , Year 2: $2 , Year 3: $1 so in year 4 value SHOULD BE $4 but it’s not. – Jack Nov 18 '22 at 19:13
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    @jack What do you mean "it's not" - is there a specific calculation where you aren't getting this result? DCF = cashflow in year 1 + cashflow in year 2 + cashflow in year 3... etc., assuming you take those future values in today's dollars, because money today is worth more than money received tomorrow. I will repeat what I said last week - you seem to be very out of your depth here, you do not seem to be as close to understanding things as you appear to believe; for your sake please make sure you spend a lot of further research before you decide to invest in stocks (if ever). – Grade 'Eh' Bacon Nov 18 '22 at 20:32
  • @DavidMulder@GradEhbacon (As we have discussed ) in Year 4 (assuming the company spent the cashflows from year 1 - 3 ) the company no longer has that cash , so its value wouldn't be $4 from the past 4 years (maybe because of future expected revenue but not the past revenue) – Jack Dec 27 '22 at 00:12
  • Though if you received dividends each year you would have $4 already in your bank account BESIDES for the future earnings. Perhaps to answer my own question. Since the company is investing the money for future growth THE market assumes the company will have MUCH better future prospects then the company that distributed dividends – Jack Dec 27 '22 at 00:19
  • Therefore said "dividend company" in year 4 (using a discount rate o f8 percent) 1 dollar every year for 5 years - would equal 3 dollars PV. So your total "Equity" would be 7 dollars (4 in dividends +3 in stocks value)AND the non-dividend comapany (since it reinvested every year ) it is able to grow at 15 percent - 1 ( 1 + .15 ) to the 5th Power discounted back equals 7. NOW BOTH DIVIDEND PAYING AND NON DIVIDEND PAYING HAVE THE SMAE VALUE(SO AN investor wants it to grow at least 15 percent otherwise you should have just given dividends) – Jack Dec 27 '22 at 00:31
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    @Jack whether a company owns cash or spends the cash on non-cash assets doesn't really change anything. They both go into the value of the company. Of course different assets can appreciate and depreciate differently, but the value of "stock + dividend" vs "stock of company not paying dividends" is exactly the same in that moment in time. Beyond that it just becomes a a question of who can invest better: you or the company. – David Mulder Dec 27 '22 at 04:20
  • @jack When a company earns cash, it either (1) gets paid out as dividends; OR (2) repays company debt; OR (3) invests in long-term projects; OR (4) is used for short-term spending. When it does #1, the investor gets immediate payout. When it does #2, the investor now owns a company with less debt. When it does #3, the investor now owns a company with more long-term potential. When it does #4, some amount of value is added that is very hard to quantify. For #2-4, it is quite likely that you can't discern the impact of that cashflow change as a retail investor. You are arguing they are useless. – Grade 'Eh' Bacon Dec 29 '22 at 16:19
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If you're buying in today, you don't gain anything from past profits. You only stand to gain from future profits. Therefore past performance should have no effect on the price you're willing to buy for, except to the extent that you believe that past performance will be indicative of future performance.

hobbs
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If a company no longer makes any money then it could close down and return the money to shareholders but if it doesn't and keeps running then it will eventually run out of money as it pays employees and other running costs.

If you had shares in some profitable company then maybe you've been paid dividends and had some value from those shares already. Even if the company isn't predicted to make any more money then those shares probably still do have some value, the Net Asset Value (NAV) of the company.

Some companies do have a share price below the NAV of the company, and they do come under pressure in that case from their existing shareholders to either break the company into smaller and likely more profitable parts, cease some or all of their unprofitable operations and/or return money to those same shareholders. After all those shareholders could sell their shares and invest that money elsewhere.

On the other hand, if you had shares in a company that you thought would make a lot of money in the future, wouldn't you want to own those shares much more than a company that had the same NAV but that you didn't expect to make any more money. The latter company is worth its NAV, the former is surely worth more than that. That's why prospective shareholders pay more for companies that are growing than companies that are static or declining.

Robert Longson
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Having a history of having made money is not worthless, but how much it is worth is complex and depends upon a variety of factors, including industry, leadership, the market the company serves and market trends.

That said, for most people looking at most companies, having been profitable in the past isn’t an asset. The company can’t sell it and probably can’t borrow against it. Shareholders can’t expect to profit from it if the company runs into problems and has to go out of business.

So, for most companies past profits only add to their value if those profits were reinvested into the company by purchasing assets that have value. To the extent that Netflix has done this (buying the rights to old movies) their value has gone up, but profits that were distributed to shareholders are gone.

jmoreno
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  • Are you saying, since Netflix spent their money on assets that can not be sold. The movies only value would be if it made profit? But in other companies if they purchase property etc... the value of the company would increase? – Jack Oct 23 '22 at 01:55
  • Investments add value as far as they allow the company to make more money, and to the degree that they can be sold later. If I buy a machine for $10,000 that allows me to produce things that I sell with $8,000 profit, and then I sell the used machine for $5,000, that increases the company's value. – gnasher729 Oct 23 '22 at 09:01
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    @jack: no, those movies can both be sold and make money. But, it’s not “they have a historical pattern of buying profitable movies” that is valuable, it’s “they own profitable movies”. The pattern part isn’t an asset, the ownership part is. – jmoreno Oct 23 '22 at 13:27
  • The last sentence in this answer is really the whole discussion in a nutshell. – Grade 'Eh' Bacon Nov 10 '22 at 14:08
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Maybe, maybe not.

Consider if you are an automaker who builds internal combustion engines in-house. You earned a lot of money by making ICE vehicles, and invested the money you obtained into ... more and more equipment for making engines and ICE vehicles. Then all of a sudden, electric cars gain traction. Your investments into all of that equipment just are worthless since nobody buys dinosaur-fueled cars anymore.

Now, you could also be an automaker that has earned a lot of money by making ICE vehicles, and paid that dividend to shareholders without investing into growth. Whatever little you own is now also worthless, but your investors have earned huge dividends in the past. That's the money of your investors, not the money of the company. So the investors are in a better situation, but that doesn't affect the company valuation at all.

Now, there's also a third possibility. Maybe you avoided paying dividend to investors, instead hoarding huge amounts of cash. The production equipment for ICE vehicles is now worthless, but at least that cash has value.

So how those past profits have been used matters a lot. Those past profits show in the balance sheet of the company, if the company didn't already pay those as dividends to shareholders.

Outdated equipment in balance sheet has no value, still useful equipment has some value, but cash always has full value.

So, investors only are interested in future performance and maybe cash in some cases. However, interest in cash is usually not all that big, investors might not value 1 billion USD cash as 1 billion USD value, since a company hoarding excess cash is usually a very poor company (why doesn't it invest it into growth? why didn't it already pay it as dividend or as share buybacks?).

All of the equipment on balance sheet is necessary for future performance of the company, so those shouldn't be valued separately, when estimating future performance you already included those in your estimation.

juhist
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  • Thanks , so then shouldn’t the value of a company now be its future cash flow (in whatever year u r predicting) and not all the future cash flows added up? – Jack Nov 13 '22 at 23:00