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I am selling a mower on Craigslist and I received this in a text:

FRM: Harry Luong

SUBJ: Re: Hey, is still for sale?

MSG: Great I saw the detail on the Ad and I'm okay with the price & condition and i want you to consider it sold. I will be securing the payment by sending you (Bank check) Via USPS next day delivery and i will handle the Shipping my self with my private Mover that will come down there for the pick up after the check cleared. I'II need your full name and Address or po box for the check to be issued out to you Thanks

Is this a scam?

Andrew T.
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Hunter Childers
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    Seems odd to me. – Hart CO Jun 07 '20 at 19:34
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    How much are you selling it for and what's it worth? It must be a really good deal for someone from out of town to purchase without looking at it, and hire a private service to ship it. Are you more than $500 under market? I'd say 99% scam. You're probably one message away from being instructed to pay the mover and that makes it 100% scam. – TTT Jun 07 '20 at 20:12
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    Yes, odds are the check is fake. The phrase "private mover craigslist" should be a trigger, and if you google that, you find lots of things that are all scams. – Joe Jun 07 '20 at 20:15
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    Note also that no specific reference to the item appears in the response. If you want a bit of fun, triple your price for the flat screen tv and you'll still get a positive response. Yes, it's a mower, not a tv, but the scammer doesn't care. – fred_dot_u Jun 07 '20 at 22:06
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    There's a reason every Craigslist page says "Avoid scams, deal locally Beware wiring (e.g. Western Union), cashier checks, money orders, shipping." This all violates several of their suggestions for avoiding scams: "Deal locally, face-to-face —follow this one rule and avoid 99% of scam attempts." – Zach Lipton Jun 08 '20 at 05:47
  • @ZachLipton Cashier's Cheques are legit though and won't bounce (unless it's fake, of course - but it's straightforward to verify the legitimacy of a cashier's cheque). – Dai Jun 08 '20 at 07:25
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    Who the heck speaks like that on a daily basis. That is some obtuse language right there and far too prompt to be a real sale. – MonkeyZeus Jun 08 '20 at 16:41
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    If you have to ask this the answer is yes. – Ken - Enough about Monica Jun 08 '20 at 22:56
  • Any person who uses the phrase "I want you to", instead of "please consider it.." or "I would like you to" even, is commanding and manipulative. That alone does mean it is a scam, but is enough for me to put that person on a permanent ignore list. – Frank Jun 10 '20 at 04:32
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    While this is almost certainly a scam, you will be able to verify only after giving him your personal details. That's when you will get instructions to give out cash to the mover, as the check is for a lot more than you are due. – Aida Paul Jun 10 '20 at 11:14
  • Why are checks even still a thing in the US? The possibility to make a payment that will "bounce" just invites fraud. – henning Jun 10 '20 at 14:42

8 Answers8

60

Yes.

Nobody sends movers to buy a mower. The check you receive will be fake, but the money you'll send back to the scammer will be very real, and out of your pocket.

Shawaron
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    Re: "the money you'll send back to the scammer will be very real" needs either clarification or correction, since the OP says nothing about giving money over to the other party. (Perhaps you expect something like in @K_focer9's answer). – Daniel R. Collins Jun 08 '20 at 05:20
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    "Nobody sends movers to buy a mower." - well, if it's a large ride-on tractor mower, maybe. – Dai Jun 08 '20 at 07:26
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    @Dai sorry, no. If it is a large ride-on tractor mower, then the buyer have even more reason to make sure it isn't a lemon and actually works. Nobody just buys second hand stuff and go "Here's the money, send it over". – Nelson Jun 08 '20 at 10:38
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    @DanielR.Collins It's not hard to imagine. The cheque will be for more than the mower, and buyer tells OP to pay the mower. The scam is now complete. It's not that hard to fabricate random reasons for the OP to pay the movers. – Nelson Jun 08 '20 at 10:39
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    @Nelson quote Nobody just buys second hand stuff and go "Here's the money, send it over" - that's completely normal for Finn.no Torget in Norway, that's usually how it's done =/ ( Finn is kindof like a Norwegian version of ebay) – hanshenrik Jun 08 '20 at 12:33
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    @hanshenrik The method of money transfer is different though, and it is not common with fraudulent reversals, as it is with the Bank checks described in the question. – user985366 Jun 08 '20 at 13:20
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    @Nelson: If that's the best response, then I recommend upvoting K_foxer9's answer, which actually says that. This answer currently does not. – Daniel R. Collins Jun 08 '20 at 14:31
  • @Dai see jxramos's answer... basically it's not a valid check; it appears to be valid but the MICR at the bottom won't readable by the machine which will end up with the check going through a manual process... so during that time OP's bank may put the funds in their account (which scammer would then want a partial refund on, or "pay the mover" or whatever) and by the time OP's bank has disovered it's fraudulent, scammer has made off with the real money that OP is on the hook for now. – Doktor J Jun 08 '20 at 20:35
  • @DanielR.Collins No, it doesn't need correction. Once you're familiar enough with these scams, you know it to be inevitable, as predictable as sunset. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jun 09 '20 at 00:06
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    @Harper: Obviously the OP is not "familiar enough with these scams", so it's an incomplete answer in that regard. – Daniel R. Collins Jun 09 '20 at 00:50
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    @DanielR.Collins On second read I do see your point, this answer is awfully sparse. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jun 09 '20 at 00:51
54

Yes.

This is a version of a widely used scam. Examples

Basically, what's likely to happen is that you may receive a check, but there's a good chance that it'll be more than was agreed to, and you'll be asked to pay the shipper the balance. (Usually, the scammer is the shipper or with the shipper, surreptitiously). Eventually, the check will bounce, and you're out the item and the money.

Just because a check clears after a few days does not mean the check is good. Checks can clear and then later bounce, and even then you're responsible for it.

There's a number of ways this works for the scammer, and they could even be using the opportunity to case your home.

As a rule of thumb, don't complete online transactions at your home, go somewhere public and safe. Also, never accept checks, personal or cashier's, they're very risky.

K_foxer9
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    I'm probably going a bit tangential but why is a cleared cheque allowed to bounce? Are there some benifits to it? It just seems to be an open invitation to scammers. – Anvit Jun 10 '20 at 14:20
  • @Anvit: years ago banks would put holds on deposited funds for up to a month because "the check might bounce". Eventually legislation was passed requiring banks to make deposited funds available in a much shorter time frame - three days, if memory serves. However, three days may not be long enough for a physical check to clear. So nowadays banks will typically credit your account immediately when a check is deposited, but if the check bounces several days/weeks later they will reverse the deposit and notify you of the problem. (This is in the US - don't know about other countries) – Bob Jarvis - Слава Україні Jun 10 '20 at 14:40
  • Note that even if the check doesn't bounce after 14 days you are still liable for the full amount if the check is later determined to be criminal/fraudulent. It may 'clear' because the scammer is using real account information from somebody that might not notice for 3 months. When they report the fraudulent charges the money will disappear from your account, plunging you to a negative balance if that's what it takes and hopefully you won't be facing any criminal inquiries (unlikely if it's a one-time thing where you got scammed) – nvuono Jun 10 '20 at 19:23
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Yes, it's an extremely common scam. It's most likely a generated message from an automated system that churns through Craigslist ads, sending the same generic email for each one. Note that there is no mention of the item or the price or anything else that would suggest this "person" even read the ad.

These scams are unavoidable on Craigslist. One thing always do is put "CASH ONLY" in my ads. It won't stop the scammers, but it makes it really easy to ignore any response that talks about "securing the payment" or paying me by check or money order. They don't even get a response.

Mohair
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    Responding would probably land you on a spam mailing list. That's a good strategy to filter them out! – jpaugh Jun 08 '20 at 16:18
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    Yes, you can tell it is a scam just from the subject alone, "Hey, is still for sale?" No need to even read the body, no mention of whats for sale = scam. – Glen Yates Jun 08 '20 at 18:19
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    Whenever I see CASH ONLY I think: here's someone who wants to avoid paying taxes. Nothing inherently wrong with selling on ebay with paypal payments, or even accepting a live online payment at the time of pickup (after confirming the piano is in good order, sitting down together while doing the transaction, signing to confirm receipt of goods, with modern online payments money should arrive in seconds). Of course it depends if the item is 20 €/£/$ or 2000 €/£/$. I find carrying large amounts of cash around scary. – gerrit Jun 09 '20 at 09:25
  • @gerrit There have been many scams where sellers have lost money when selling items using PayPay. PayPal/Ebay tend to protect the buyer rather than the seller. People will claim that the item didn't arrive or was damaged and Paypal will refund the full cost leaving the seller without the money or the item. – scotty3785 Jun 09 '20 at 10:06
  • @scotty3785 Interesting. One wonders how the many people selling and shipping stuff on Ebay handle that. – gerrit Jun 09 '20 at 10:30
  • @gerrit This might vary based on location, but I can think of only two taxes that might apply to a Craigslist sale, but both would be paid by the buyer, not the seller. One is sales (or "use") tax, which I doubt anyone bothers to pay. The other is a transfer or title tax, which would apply to things like cars and real estate, both of which have to be registered, so the tax is unavoidable. Either way, buyer pays. – Mohair Jun 09 '20 at 15:02
  • @Mohair How about income tax or capital gains tax? If I make a living selling art on craigslist, I'd expect the tax office to be interested. Same if I sell apples or bicycles. And if I make a profit by buying old crap and selling antiques (on craigslist), how would that be different from profits made by trading stocks, bitcoin, or real estate? – gerrit Jun 09 '20 at 15:30
  • @gerrit Like a yard sale, I'd venture that most of the things sold on Craigslist are resale items sold below the original purchase price, so no gain is realized and no taxes are due. I'm not including the ads for furniture, art, etc., where the item is actually in a brick and mortar location. If you are selling stuff and actually making a profit off of Craigslist, good for you. Pay whatever taxes are due. I'd love to know what percentage of sellers that is. I bet it's not a very large number. – Mohair Jun 09 '20 at 16:18
  • @gerrit: What's wrong with on-line payments for things like this is the complexity of doing person to person transfers. Sure, if it's your business to buy & sell on eBay, Craigslist, or wherever, and you do many of them, you know how. If you're an ordinary person who might have occasion to do one transaction a year, it's not. – jamesqf Jun 09 '20 at 16:30
  • @jamesqf Are person to person still complex to anyone with internet access? I'm aware that bank transfers are historically uncommon in North America (I never understood Paypals' business model until I realised this; in The Netherlands, people were playing correspondence chess by giro bank transfers decades ago, simply by repeated free transfers of ƒ0.01 to each other with the chess move in the comment field, bank pays postage), but isn't there a large host of fintech applications that have pretty much eliminated the difficulty of electronic inter-personal transfers in North America? – gerrit Jun 10 '20 at 07:08
  • @GlenYates "Hi, is ${item} still for sale?" – Captain Man Jun 10 '20 at 18:23
  • @gerrit: Yes, it's pretty complicated if you don't use it regularly. For instance, I have a PayPal account that I last used maybe 5 years ago (and used maybe 3-4 times altogether). So if I want to use it tomorrow, I have to try to remember the password or go through the reset process, then find out the seller's payment details and enter them. Much easier just to hand over some cash. – jamesqf Jun 11 '20 at 04:27
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My folks almost got hit with such a scam. They were trying to sell an old classic car engine or transmission on craigslist. I remember it being something big bulky and heavy. They had some phone exchange with the out of state buyer who rapid shipped some actual UPS label to have a freight delivery operator come and pick up the unit. They also shipped in the same envelope a cashiers check to their local bank. I inspected and scrutinized the check, it looked indubitably real. There was an address and such for the bank which was a small local bank in Virginia or something out East Coast from what I remember. I looked up their phone number online and called them up and asked if they could verify that the given check number and amount and issuer were valid. The gentleman took a moment, looked up the information and shared it was not a valid check issued by their bank. He also shared with me that they've been the target of these sorts of scams for a handful of cases in the last few months and suggested we forward our theft case to the authorities, which if I recall was FBI and some regulatory body like consumer fraud, I forget exactly.

This page on craigslist is worth reading

https://www.craigslist.org/about/scams

jxramos
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  • Does this mean the seller can protect themselves against such a scam by calling the bank? If the bank says "yes, it's real", does that make it a safe deal? – gerrit Jun 09 '20 at 15:33
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    @gerrit, No. If it's a small bank from somewhere far away, the bank itself could be fake, with a 4-page website whose phone number routes to the scammer. – Michael come lately Jun 09 '20 at 16:40
  • Yah, if they confirmed it may be worth double checking their presence by corroborating against several independent pieces of information. Too much work to even get to that point in my opinion but they were already deep in the situation that I had to catch up to what already took place. – jxramos Jun 10 '20 at 01:24
  • @Michael-Where'sClayShirky Hmm, but I'd expect banks are licensed registered businesses, so with a bit of detective work it should be possible to figure out if a bank is real or not, shouldn't it? – gerrit Jun 10 '20 at 07:08
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    The "buyer" could be using a real bank with real customer account number and other information on a check with stolen information, Verifying with the bank that the information is correct and a valid check still won't tell you if the check is being written by the actual account holder. Scammer could be sending you $1000, asking for $200 cash back and doesn't even care if the item ever gets anywhere as long as they get your $200 in untraceable cash from the stolen information. – nvuono Jun 10 '20 at 19:28
9

Craigslist

mailing, check, and/or shipping

Scam

It's as simple as that. Craigslist is ONLY for face-to-face, cash-on-the-barrelhead transactions. As soon as "mail", "check" or "ship" comes up, block the "buyer". It is a scam.

Of course, your guy dinged all 3 bells.

If someone wants to do that type of transaction, and you believe they are real, you should force them onto a platform with proper anti-scam and seller protections, such as eBay/PayPal. And you need to play savvy and by the rules there, too. The methods used by Craigslist scammers do not work on any eBay/PayPal who is savvy and following the rules.

Of course the same is true for Craigslist, the rules plainly say "Local/face to face sales only".

How it works.

The scammers are on Craigslist because that works, because 1% of people will be fooled and agree to absurd transactions.

The "check scam" is that the check is forged in a way that will take a very long time to bounce. However the bank only places a hold on the money for X days (that's the time most checks take to bounce). Consumers think that the hold release means the check cleared. It does not. Meanwhile the scammer is telling you "Look, the check cleared, send me back some of the money!" And gives you an irreversible method like Western Union. Then the check bounces, and you are out the money you sent onward.

There's some excuse for overpaying, and then the scammer says "Pay my shipping company when the item is picked up". That gets revised to "Oh, my shipping company needs it in advance, can you wire it to Western Union 123-456-7890111".

And then the shipper never shows up. The payment you wired was the endgame of the scam.

Community
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Harper - Reinstate Monica
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1

Those people are indeed scammers. They tried to buy a car from my family using such methods. Then they sent a paypal payment page so we can pay just for the transportation.

Guess what? It wasn't a paypal address. It was something like paypalsomething.com.

In our case it was a car. Beware!

Plus, don't even respond. I suppose most of that is actually automated so calling them names should not even get to them. They must be doing this by the thousands everyday.

Thanks governments for not sorting it out.

Fabio Milheiro
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0

This is a fraud, end to end. The cheque you get will not be properly printed with machine readable magnetic ink.

Bob Baerker
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Bill Jackson
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0

Felt it important to add an answer because there seems to be a theme among other users answering this question that the result of being scammed will be that you won't be sent a real check or you'll be given a check that bounces due to insufficient funds. You could very well get the money and have it in your account for a month before the problems start.

Scammers can buy all the information they need to write a real check in somebody else's name and create a counterfeit check that the issuing bank may even be able to verify as a 'valid' check. If the scammer is using the personal information for somebody who has enough money in their account then the check won't even bounce. It may be months until that person notices the fraudulent activity and reports it. At that point the funds will be removed from your account, plunging you to a negative balance if necessary. You'll be contacted by the bank security team or law enforcement who will probably just verify you got scammed and not take any further action but that money will never be coming back.

The scammer cannot get away with just directly transferring the money out of the person whose information they stole so they are trying to get it laundered through you via different transfer modes (you sending cash, paypal, western union, etc) that won't easily be reversed and will be more difficult to track back to them.

The movers/delivery service will likely never even materialize to pick up the item so you may not lose your mower though.

nvuono
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  • good things to ponder here. Is any of this precedented before? The part about fraudulent activity and removing funds from your account. Can that actually happen, under what authority I'm wondering? – jxramos Jun 10 '20 at 22:09