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This is an idea I have had in my head for years and years and I would like to know the answer, and also I would like to know if it's somehow relevant to anything or useless. I describe my thoughts with the following image:
enter image description here
What would the area of the "red almost half circle" on top of the third square be, assuming you rotate the hypotenuse of a square around it's center limiting its movement so it cannot pass through the bottom of the square.
My guess would be:

$$\ \frac{\left(\pi*(h/2)^2 - a^2\right)}{2}$$

And also, does this have any meaning? Have I been wandering around thinking about complete nonsense for so many years?

leonbloy
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    I would almost guess that this problem has something to do with so-called catenary problem (hanging chain) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary. It looks related to me. – pisoir Apr 06 '14 at 16:42
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    I don't think the shape at the top of the curve is actually a circle. I can write out the details of this as an answer if people are interested. – Nate Eldredge Apr 06 '14 at 17:08
  • Superficially, it might also be related to the Kakeya problem? – Gyu Eun Lee Apr 06 '14 at 17:11
  • Rough idea: compute the equation of the line from a point $(x_0,0)$ through $(a/2,a/2)$. Set the distance of the line segment from $(x_0,0)$ through $(x,y)$ to be $\sqrt{2}a$. Use this to find $y$ and then integrate $y$ as $x_0$ goes from $0$ to $a$. Subtract the area of the square. – Martin Leslie Apr 06 '14 at 17:17
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    @kigen: It's clearly not a circle centered at the green point. It's less clear (to me) that it can't be a circle centered at some other point. – Nate Eldredge Apr 06 '14 at 17:19
  • @NateEldredge Ah, fair point. – Gyu Eun Lee Apr 06 '14 at 17:21
  • I haven't really dug deep into how to solve this (until now) and I see now that my guess is wrong by miles. –  Apr 06 '14 at 17:25
  • @pisoir The fact that Catenary is at both ends pointing at an angle, but this arc is at both ends pointing perfectly vertical, indicates to me the two curves are probably unrelated. – Patashu Apr 07 '14 at 06:51
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    Perhaps you would enjoy an introductory text on synthetic geometry. You see constructions with this type of constraint a lot there, and calculus often isn't necessary. – Loki Clock Apr 07 '14 at 09:07

6 Answers6

61

I found this problem interesting enough to make a little animation along the line of @Blue's diagram (but I didn't want to edit their answer without permission):

enter image description here

Mathematica syntax for those who are interested:

G[d_, t_] := {t - (d t)/Sqrt[1 + t^2], d /Sqrt[1 + t^2]}
P[c_, m_] := Show[ParametricPlot[G[# Sqrt[8], t], {t, -4, 4}, 
 PlotStyle -> {Dashed, Hue[#]}, PlotRange -> {{-1.025, 1.025}, {-.025, 
               2 Sqrt[2] + 0.025}}] & /@ (Range[m]/m), 
 ParametricPlot[G[Sqrt[8], t], {t, -1, 1}, PlotStyle -> {Red, Thick}], 
 Graphics[{Black, Disk[{0, 1}, .025], Opacity[0.1], Rectangle[{-1, 0}, {1, 2}],
           Opacity[1], Line[{{c, 0}, G[Sqrt[8], c]}], Disk[{c, 0}, .025],
           {Hue[#], Disk[G[# Sqrt[8], c], .025]} & /@ (Range[m]/m)}],
 Axes -> False]
Manipulate[P[c, m], {c, -1, 1}, {m, 1, 20, 1}]
heropup
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    Very nice! I'd certainly let you add it to my answer, but I'd prefer it stand alone so that you can get up-votes. – Blue Apr 07 '14 at 02:53
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    ooooh shiny. +1 – Guy Apr 07 '14 at 05:13
  • That's beautiful! +1 –  Apr 07 '14 at 16:38
  • We can also forget about the square, and then let this segment rotate even further, its "foot" running along the $x$-axis and its direction such that it always points to the "focus" $(0,b)$ (notation from Blues answer). I wonder if the curve has a name. – Jeppe Stig Nielsen Apr 08 '14 at 15:22
  • @Blue it is amazing it got almost twice votes than your answer, but i am sure you are glad – VividD Apr 30 '15 at 22:04
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Let $O$ be the center of the square, and let $\ell(\theta)$ be the line through $O$ that makes an angle $\theta$ with the horizontal line. The line $\ell(\theta)$ intersects with the lower side of the square at a point $M_\theta$, with $OM_\theta=\dfrac{a}{2\sin \theta }$. So, if $N_\theta$ is the other end of our 'rotating' diagonal then we have $$ON_\theta=\rho(\theta)=h-OM_\theta=a\sqrt{2}-\dfrac{a}{2\sin \theta }.$$ Now, the area traced by $ON_\theta$ as $\theta$ varies between $\pi/4$ and $3\pi/4$ is our desired area augmented by the area of the quarter of the square. So, the desired area is $$\eqalign{ \mathcal{A}&=\frac{1}{2}\int_{\pi/4}^{3\pi/4}\rho^2(\theta)\,d\theta-\frac{a^2}{4}\cr &=a^2\int_{\pi/4}^{\pi/2}\left(\sqrt{2}-\frac{1}{2\sin\theta}\right)^2\,d\theta-\frac{a^2}{4} &=a^2\left(\frac{\pi}{2}-\sqrt{2}\ln(1+\sqrt{2})\right) } $$ Therefore, the correct answer is about $13.6\%$ larger than the conjectured answer.

Omran Kouba
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To avoid some fractions, I'll define $b := a/2$, so that the side of the square is $2b$ and its diagonal has length $2b\sqrt{2}$. Position the square so that its bottom lies on the $x$-axis, and its center lies on the $y$ axis (specifically, at $(0,b)$).

A tilted diagonal determines a line through $(0,b)$ and, say, $(c,0)$, with $c$ some parameter such that $-b \leq c \leq b$. Such a line has equation $$\frac{x}{c} + \frac{y}{b} = 1 \qquad \to \qquad x b + y c = b c \qquad (\star)$$ The upper endpoint, $(x,y)$, of the tilted diagonal is a distance $2b\sqrt{2}$ from $(c,0)$: $$(x-c)^2 + y^2 = 8 b^2 \qquad (\star\star)$$ Eliminating $c$ from $(\star)$ and $(\star\star)$ gives $$x^2 = \frac{(y-b)^2 (8 b^2 - y^2)}{y^2}$$ This equation represents this graph:

enter image description here

The area of the portion above the square can be determined via this integral:

$$2\;\int_{2b}^{2b\sqrt{2}}\frac{y-b}{y}\sqrt{8b^2-y^2} \; dy = 2b^2 \left( \pi - 2 \sqrt{2} \log( 1 + \sqrt{2} ) \right) = a^2 \left( \frac{\pi}{2} - \sqrt{2} \log(1+\sqrt{2})\right)$$ which agrees with both @OmranKouba and @IanMateus.

Blue
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This isn't really an answer, but I wanted to record my observation that the curve in question is not actually a circle.

Let's say the square has corners at $(\pm 1, \pm 1)$ so that the center is at the origin (and the diagonal has length $\sqrt{8}$). If we fix a point $(s,-1)$ on the lower edge of the square, the line through $(s,-1)$ and $(0,0)$ is parametrized by $t \mapsto (-ts, t)$. The point on this line which is distance $\sqrt{8}$ from $(s,-1)$ corresponds to $t$ being the positive solution of $$(-ts-s)^2+(t+1)^2=8$$ which is $$t = -1 + \sqrt{\frac{8}{s^2+1}}.$$ So the curve is parametrized by $$(x(s),y(s)) = \left( s - s\sqrt{\frac{8}{s^2+1}}, -1+\sqrt{\frac{8}{s^2+1}}\right).$$ If this is indeed a circle, by symmetry its center must be on the $y$-axis at some point $(0, y_0)$ in which case we must have $$x(s)^2 + (y(s)-y_0)^2 = \text{const}$$ or, differentiating, $$2 x(s) x'(s) + 2 (y(s)-y_0) y'(s) = 0.$$ Solving, we find that we must have $$y_0 = \frac{x(s) x'(s)}{y'(s)} + y(s).$$ But this is not constant. When $s=0$ the right side is $\frac{4-\sqrt{2}}{4}$ while if $s=1$ we get $1$.

Nate Eldredge
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math stuff?

I'm not like super expert at math, and I only kind of checked my work, but I'm pretty sure this crudely-drawn msPaint picture is correct.

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    I'm gonna be honest, the fact that you thought this was posting after all the other awesome answers (and with that ridiculous disclaimer, no less!) is hilarious. I mean, kudos on getting an answer that agrees with Omran Kouba's, but...really? – Kyle Strand Apr 07 '14 at 18:45
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(Misinterpreted question, working on the correct version), the second part still holds.

The other question:

Does this have any meaning? Have I been wandering around thinking about complete nonsense for so many years?

I am not sure what you mean, to me all math is meaningful. There is no such thing as meaningless in math, unless you write something obviously absurd like

$$\frac{1}{8}- \text{tomato} = ??$$

Now, yours is certainly a valid question, with some applications in engineering, I presume. Sure the above calculation isn't ground breaking -- fairly elementary in fact -- but it could come up.

Also, I do see some hints and traces of the Isoperimetric problem which discusses how efficient a shape is at enclosing an area, and circles happen to be the most efficient, a property that translates into volume-area efficiency in spheres -- which is the reason behind why all major celestial bodies are (almost) spheres, why bubbles are spherical, why raindrops are spherical, et cetera.

Guy
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  • It won't be a circle. At the vertices, the distance from the centre of the square is $\frac{a}{\sqrt{2}}$, in the middle of each arc, the distance is $(\sqrt{2}-\frac{1}{2})a$. – Daniel Fischer Apr 06 '14 at 16:23
  • @DanielFischer he isn't rotating it about the centre? – Guy Apr 06 '14 at 16:26
  • @DanielFischer Oh I see, he is keeping the other end of the diagonal within the sqaure. – Guy Apr 06 '14 at 16:29
  • Within the square, you mean. Yes. – Daniel Fischer Apr 06 '14 at 16:30
  • @DanielFischer Yes, I mean square. – Guy Apr 06 '14 at 16:31
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    I object to the example. $\frac{1}{8}-\text{tomato}$ makes sense in any additive abelian group containing $\frac{1}{8}$ and a tomato. – Gyu Eun Lee Apr 06 '14 at 17:10
  • @kigen sure what the hell. Everything makes sense. I considered $\text{tomato}$ can be a variable, pretty much the same. – Guy Apr 06 '14 at 17:12
  • @kigen: Practically, I am aware of systems in which 1/8, tomato and addition are well defined (cookbooks, for example). However, I am unaware of any system in which 1/8, tomato and the - operator are all well defined. – dotancohen Apr 07 '14 at 13:28
  • @dotancohen - $\mathbb{Q}[$tomato$]$ – Christopher Apr 07 '14 at 15:30
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    @user73985 why do we insist on $\text{tomato}$ making sense, when in fact that was clearly not the point of the answer. – Guy Apr 07 '14 at 15:31
  • @Sabyasachi We insist on things making sense because we are human, making things make sense is what we do, and is the defining characteristic of humanity. – corsiKa Apr 08 '14 at 16:00
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    @corsiKa such philosophy. many touching. wow. – Guy Apr 09 '14 at 16:06