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I read a section of a book and it made mention of the set of rationals not being a $G_\delta$. However, it gave no proof. I read on wikipedia about using contradiction, but it made use of the Baire category theorem, which is unfamiliar to me.
I was wondering if anyone could offer me a different proof; perhaps using the fact that the complement of $G_\delta$ is $F_\sigma$.

Thanks.

Kuku
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    @Michael: What a bizarre edit... Isn't this a bit exaggerated? – t.b. Oct 03 '11 at 05:06
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    I voted to close as a duplicate of a similar question, but then noticed that this question requests to avoid the Baire category theorem, which essentially gave different answers. I withdraw the closing vote (and have removed the "offending" comment which is adjoined to duplicates). If someone wants to close this, please cancel out my vote in a comment. Thanks. – Asaf Karagila Oct 03 '11 at 21:58
  • @t.b.: I haven't edited any posts to improve their inner $\TeX$ workings without visible effect, but I did find that I learned quite a few things about more efficient $\TeX$ on this site, including the fact that lots of things don't require braces where I used to put them, so I don't mind Michael improving things in that way. Also, knowing Michael from Wikipedia, I'm not surprised by his strong focus on optimal $\TeX$ code :-) – joriki Oct 19 '11 at 15:09
  • @joriki: I agree to some extent only. I think that this is purely a matter of TeXing-style (in LaTeX they can be omitted but shouldn't according to Lamport), see here for more arguments for and against it. Leaving out braces impoverishes some spacing on this site (for example when used in combination with \operatorname, depending on browsers and so on). I like and appreciate most of Michael's edits, but this one was a bit too much for me to take :) – t.b. Oct 19 '11 at 15:24
  • @t.b.: Thanks for that link. I haven't noticed any brace and browser dependencies in spacing -- can you point to an example of that? – joriki Oct 19 '11 at 15:42
  • @joriki: Here's an example of what I mean. I would argue the first line has "proper spacing" while in the second line the argument is too close to the "Hom". "Browser dependencies" are maybe not the proper technical term, it depends on how you set up your MathJaX/MathML preferences (right clicking on a formula) and which fonts are installed on your OS and so on here's a symptom of that. The site looks quite different, depending on which machine I'm currently using. – t.b. Oct 19 '11 at 15:57
  • @t.b.: Interesting. Actually it would never have occurred to me to use braces after \operatorname{Hom}. I agree that it looks better. A Google search doesn't turn up any examples of people using braces there. – joriki Oct 19 '11 at 16:14

6 Answers6

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I suspect that just about any proof that doesn’t directly use the Baire category theorem either uses a consequence of it or proves a special case of it. I’ve chosen the second course.

Suppose that $\mathbb{Q} = \bigcap\limits_{k\in\omega}V_k$, where each $V_k$ is open in the usual topology on $\mathbb{R}$. Clearly each $V_k$ is dense in $\mathbb{R}$. Let $\mathbb{Q}=\{q_k:k\in\omega\}$ be an enumeration of the rationals, and for each $k\in\omega$ let $W_k=V_k\setminus \{q_k\}$; clearly each $W_k$ is dense and open in $\mathbb{R}$, and $\bigcap\limits_{k\in\omega}W_k = \varnothing$.

Let $(a_0,b_0)$ be any non-empty open interval such that $[a_0,b_0]\subseteq W_0$. Given a non-empty open interval $(a_k,b_k)$, let $r_k=\frac14(b_k-a_k)$; clearly $a_k<a_k+r_k<b_k-r_k<b_k$. Since $W_{k+1}$ is dense and open, there is a non-empty open interval $(a_{k+1},b_{k+1})$ such that $$(a_{k+1},b_{k+1}) \subseteq [a_{k+1},b_{k+1}] \subseteq W_{k+1}\cap (a_k+r_k,b_k-r_k),$$ and the construction can continue.

For $k\in\omega$ let $J_k = [a_k,b_k] \subseteq W_k$. For each $k \in \omega$ we have $J_k \supseteq J_{k+1}$, so $\{J_k:k\in\omega\}$ is a decreasing nest of non-empty closed intervals. Let $J = \bigcap\limits_{k\in\omega}J_k$; $J\subseteq J_k \subseteq W_k$ for each $k\in\omega$, so $J \subseteq \bigcap\limits_{k\in\omega}W_k = \varnothing$. But the nested intervals theorem guarantees that $J \ne \varnothing$, so we have a contradiction. Thus, $\mathbb{Q}$ cannot be a $G_\delta$-set in $\mathbb{R}$.

Brian M. Scott
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  • Very nice proof! Thanks for point me out the error in my argument. I deleted the post because of as you explain it is not fixable. – Leandro Oct 03 '11 at 06:13
  • Do you think the fact there is no $\Delta^0_2$ universal set can be used in such proof? (Since if the rationals are $G_\delta$ then $\omega^\omega$ is $\Delta^0_2$) – Asaf Karagila Oct 03 '11 at 06:13
  • @Brian M. Scott: I agree with Leandro, is very nice proof. Just a little thing, I think you mean "clearly $a_k\lt a_k+r_k\lt b_k-r_k\lt b_k$." – leo Oct 03 '11 at 18:27
  • @leo: You’re absolutely right; thanks for catching the typo. – Brian M. Scott Oct 03 '11 at 20:03
  • Why you can find a open interval $(a_0,b_0)$ from $W_0$? – Gatsby Nov 28 '16 at 01:07
  • @Gatsby: Because $W_0$ is open. – Brian M. Scott Nov 28 '16 at 01:09
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    It seems to me it's unnecessary to introduce $r_k$ and all that; can't you just pick $a_{k+1}, b_{k+1}$ such that $[a_{k+1}, b_{k+1}] \subset W_{k+1}\cap (a_k, b_k)$, and apply the same argument? – Dark Malthorp Sep 17 '20 at 00:28
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    @DarkMalthorp: Yes, that would be sufficient. I don’t know why I made that choice nine years ago; it might have been habit, from using nests of closed intervals to pin down specific real numbers, or it might have been a suspicion that this might be more familiar to the OP. At this point I’m not inclined to change it, since the answer seems to have been pretty helpful. – Brian M. Scott Sep 17 '20 at 00:38
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    Makes sense. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. – Dark Malthorp Sep 17 '20 at 00:43
  • Why is the density of $W_{k+1}$ necessary? Is it so the intersection is not empty? – INQUISITOR Sep 25 '20 at 17:36
  • @user439126: The intersection with $(a_k+r_k,b_k-r_k)$? Yes. – Brian M. Scott Sep 25 '20 at 17:39
  • Yes, that's what I meant. Thank you. – INQUISITOR Sep 25 '20 at 17:40
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    @user439126: You’re welcome. – Brian M. Scott Sep 25 '20 at 17:40
  • @BrianM.Scott I don't get this part $(a_{k+1},b_{k+1}) \subseteq [a_{k+1},b_{k+1}]$. I always thought it was the other way around? –  Oct 26 '22 at 03:46
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    @Note: If $x\in(a_{k+1},b_{k+1})$, then by definition $a_{k+1}<x<b_{k+1}$. Then it’s certainly true that $a_{k+1}\le x\le b_{k+1}$, which means that $x\in[a_{k+1},b_{k+1}]$. Thus, every element of $(a_{k+1},b_{k+1})$ is an element of $[a_{k+1},b_{k+1}]$, i.e., $([a_{k+1},b_{k+1})\subseteq[[a_{k+1},b_{k+1}]$. It may help to look at a specific example. Suppose that $a_{k+1}=0$ and $b_{k+1}=1$; then $([a_{k+1},b_{k+1})\subseteq[[a_{k+1},b_{k+1}]$ just says that $(0,1)\subseteq[0,1]$, which is clear: $[0,1]$ contains everything in $(0,1)$ and also the numbers $0$ and $1$. – Brian M. Scott Oct 26 '22 at 05:12
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A strange argument follows:

Suppose $\mathbb Q$ is a $G_\delta$. Mazurkiewicz's theorem (you can read about it here ) tells us that there exists then a metric $d$ on $\mathbb Q$, equivalent to the original one, such that $\mathbb Q$ is complete with respect to $d$.

Now, a complete metric space which is countable as a set has an isolated point (to prove this one needs Baire's theorem) so we conclude that $\mathbb Q$, in its usual topology, has an isolated point. This is of course absurd.

  • Hi Mariano, when you post I was typing my suggestion of solution, I hope you don't mind. Sorry about that. – Leandro Oct 03 '11 at 05:15
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    @Leandro: of course not! The two ideas are quite different (and mine should not be taken too seriously :) ) – Mariano Suárez-Álvarez Oct 03 '11 at 05:18
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    The complete metrizability of $G_\delta$'s is not so hard to prove (and is due to Alexandrov; Mazurkiewicz's contribution is the more subtle other direction): first show that an open subset $U \subset X$ of a complete metric space $X$ embeds as a closed set in $X \times \mathbb{R}$ via $u \mapsto (u,\frac1{d(u,X \smallsetminus U)})$. Similarly, a countable intersection of open sets $G = \bigcap_{n=1}^\infty U_n$ can be embedded as a closed set in $X \times \mathbb{R}^\mathbb{N}$ via $g \mapsto (g; d(g,1/d(g,X \smallsetminus U_1), 1/d(g,X \smallsetminus U_2), \ldots)$. – t.b. Aug 16 '12 at 11:34
  • I know this post is over 5 years old. But we can avoid Baire by showing that a non-empty completely metrizable space with no isolated points is uncountable by constructing a sub-space homeomorphic to the Cantor set. ...."Avoiding Baire" seems to be a recurring theme on this site. – DanielWainfleet Mar 09 '17 at 04:47
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You can use the fact that the complement of $\mathcal{G}_\delta$ is $\mathcal{F}_\sigma$. We have that the set of rationals $\mathbb{Q}$ is a $\mathcal{G}_\delta$ set if and only if the set of irrationals $\mathbb{R}\backslash\mathbb{Q}$ is an $\mathcal{F}_\sigma$ set. Suppose that is true, so $\mathbb{R}\backslash\mathbb{Q}=\bigcup\limits_{n=1}^\infty B_n$, where $B_n$ are closed. None of the $B_n$ contains any nondegenerate interval, since that would contain a rational number. Let the rational numbers be enumerated as $\{q_1,q_2,\ldots\}$ and let $C_n=B_n\cup\{q_n\}$; note that $C_n$ is closed, as a finite union of closed sets, and contains no nondegenerate interval. We have $$\mathbb{R}=\mathbb{Q}\cup(\mathbb{R}\backslash\mathbb{Q})=\{q_1,q_2,\ldots\}\cup \bigcup\limits_{n=1}^\infty B_n=\bigcup\limits_{n=1}^\infty C_n.$$ Hence $\mathbb{R}$ is the union of closed sets $C_n$, none of which contain a nondegenerate interval.

Let $I$ be a closed interval such that $I\cap C_1=\varnothing$. This exists, since $C_1$ is closed, so for all $x\notin C_1$, we can find an open interval containing $x$ lying outside $C_1$, and hence a closed interval within that, or else $C_1=\mathbb{R}$, which is impossible since $C_1$ contains no nondegenerate interval. Similarly, define a closed interval $I_2\subset I_1$ such that $I_2\cap C_2=\varnothing$, possible since $I_1\not\subset C_2$ and $C_2$ is closed and contains no nondegenerate interval. Apply this repeatedly to obtain a nested sequence of closed intervals $I_1\supset I_2\supset\ldots$, where $I_n\cap C_n=\varnothing$.

Consider the set $I=\bigcap\limits_{n=1}^\infty I_n$. We know that $I$ is nonempty, but for $x\in I$, we have $x\notin C_n$ for all $n\in\mathbb{N}$, contradicting the assumption that $\mathbb{R}=\bigcup\limits_{n=1}^\infty C_n$. Hence, by contradiction, $\mathbb{R}\backslash\mathbb{Q}$ is not $\mathcal{F}_\sigma$, so that $\mathbb{Q}$ is not $\mathcal{G}_\delta$.

Naomi L K
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  • Nice! Note that your argument about the $I_n$s is basically a proof of BCT: the complement of $C_i$ is a dense open set, and we can replace "interval" with "closed ball with positive radius" in an arbitrary metric space. (A quibble: you write "$I_1\subset I_2\subset . . .$" when you mean "$I_1\supset I_2\supset . . .$") – Noah Schweber Oct 07 '16 at 02:30
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Another silly argument which I think also works:

Suppose $\mathbb Q$ is a $G_\delta$, so that there exists a sequence $(A_n)_{n\geq1}$ of open subsets of $\mathbb R$ such that $\mathbb Q=\bigcap_{n\geq1} A_n$.

Recall that each $A_n$ is a disjoint union of open intervals. For each $n\geq1$ let $\mathcal I_n$ be the set of the intervals making up $A_n$.

Without loss of generality, we can assume that $\mathcal I_1$ contains at least two elements — call them $I(0)$ and $I(1)$ — each of length at most $2^{-1}$

We can also assume that $\mathcal I_2$ it contains two elements contained in $I(0)$ each of length $2^{-1}$ — call them $I(00)$ and $I(01)$ — and two elements contained in $I(1)$, also of length at most $2^{-1}$ — call them $I(10)$ and $I(11)$.

Of course, we can continue in this way indefinitely... We thus obtain intervals $I(w)$, one for each finite word $w$ written in the letters $0$ and $1$, such that the length of $I(w)$ is at most $2^{-\mathrm{length}(w)}$, and such that whenever $w'$ is a prefix of $w$, then $I(w')\supseteq I(w)$.

Now pick any infinite sequence $w$ of zeroes and ones, and for each $n\geq1$ let $w_n$ be the prefix of $w$ of length $n$, and pick a point $x_n$ in the interval $I(w_n)$. It is easy to check that the limit $y_w=\lim_{n\to\infty}x_n$ exists and belongs to $\mathbb Q$, and that $y_w\neq y_{w'}$ if $w$ and $w'$ are distinct infinite sequences of zeroes and ones. This is absurd, as $\mathbb Q$ is countable yet there are uncountably many infinite sequences of zeroes and ones.

$$♦♦♦$$

Another way to implement the above idea.

Suppose $\mathbb Q=\cap_{n\geq1}A_n$ with $A_n$ open in $\mathbb R$.

We massage the open sets a bit first.

  • For each $b\geq1$ let $B_n=\bigcap_{i=1}^nA_n$, so that $(B_n)_{n\geq1}$ is a decreasing sequence of open sets whose intersection is also $\mathbb Q$.

  • Next, for each $n\geq1$ let $C_n=B_n\cap\Big(\mathbb R\setminus(\pi+\tfrac1{2^n}\mathbb Z)\Big)$, so that $(C_n)$ is also a decreasing sequence of open sets whose intersection is $\mathbb Q$, with the added nice property that for all $n\geq1$ each connected component of $C_n$ is of length at most $\tfrac1{2^n}$.

Let $\mathcal I_n$ be set of connected components of $C_n$. If $n\geq1$, then $C_n\supseteq C_{n+1}$ so there is a function $\phi_n:\mathcal I_{n+1}\to\mathcal I_n$ sending each element of $\mathcal I_{n+1}$ to the unique element of $\mathcal I_n$ which contains it. Since $\bigcap_{n\geq1}C_n=\mathbb Q$, it is easy to see that $\phi_n$ is surjective.

Let $$X=\varprojlim(\mathcal I_n,\phi_n)=\Big\{(i_n)_{n\geq1}\in\prod_{n\geq1}\mathcal I_n:\phi_n(i_{n+1})=i_n,\quad\forall n\geq1\Big\}$$ be the inverse limit of the sets $\mathcal I_n$ along the maps $\phi_n$. This is an uncountable set, and it is easy to construct an injective function $f:X\to\mathbb Q$. Indeed, if $\xi=(i_n)_{n\geq1}\in X$ pick, for each $n\geq1$, a point $x_n\in i_n$; then one can show that $f(\xi)=\lim_{n\to\infty}x_n$ exists, and that this defines an injective function.

  • This shows that, more generally, $G_\delta$ sets are uncountable, of course. – Mariano Suárez-Álvarez Oct 03 '11 at 06:19
  • Not just uncountable, but of cardinality $2^\omega$. (As is true of any uncountable Borel set.) – Brian M. Scott Oct 03 '11 at 06:45
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    @Brian, Mariano: What about ${0}\cup{\frac{1}{n}\mid n\in\mathbb N}$? It is a $G_\delta$ set and it is most certainly countable. Furthermore, what about ${0}$? – Asaf Karagila Oct 03 '11 at 06:46
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    Then more generally dense $G_\delta$ sets are uncountable. :-) – Asaf Karagila Oct 03 '11 at 06:51
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    @Asaf: Or even just somewhere dense $G_\delta$-sets. – Brian M. Scott Oct 03 '11 at 07:09
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    @Brian: Of course, just not "more generally"... since some $G_\delta$ are countable or even finite. – Asaf Karagila Oct 03 '11 at 07:12
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    @Asaf: Yes, I sloppily overlooked the ‘more generally’ when commenting on the nature of the uncountability. – Brian M. Scott Oct 03 '11 at 07:17
  • Mariano Suárez-Alvarez: I am trying to understand your explanation. How can you assume that there are at least two elements in $\mathcal I_n$? why can't $\mathcal I_n$ be a one open segment? Thank you. – topsi Jan 05 '14 at 10:03
  • @MarianoSuárez-Alvarez I have a question: why is the set $X$ uncountable? I know of no means to calculate the cardinality of a projective limit. And I am not sure if the $2^{\mathbb N}$- argument works. It would be appreciated if you can elaborate on this point, thanks in advance. – awllower Oct 17 '15 at 14:37
  • Maybe we can "massage" these $C_n$ again? To cut the connected components of $C_n$ further so that it splits more? – awllower Oct 17 '15 at 15:58
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Let $\mathbb Q$ be $G_\delta$ set

$\implies \mathbb Q = \bigcap_{i \in \mathbb N} U_i$ where $U_i$ is open set

$\implies \mathbb Q \subseteq U_i \forall i $

Since $\mathbb Q$ is dense $\implies U_i$ is also dense

As $\mathbb Q$ is countable then $\mathbb Q = \{q_k | k \in \mathbb N \}$

Observe that each $ U_i \backslash \{q_i\}$ is open and dense

By Baire Category theorem ( A countable intersection of open dense set in $\mathbb R$ is again dense)

$\implies \bigcap U_i \backslash \{q_i\} $ is open and dense but observe that $\bigcap U_i \backslash \{q_i\} = \varnothing \;\;\;\;\;\;\Rightarrow\Leftarrow$

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We prove the following by direct elementary methods without "Baire" or its immediate corollaries:

(1). A non-empty completely metrizable space with no isolated points is uncountable.( We construct a subset that is a bijective image of the set of functions from $\mathbb N$ to $\{0,1\}.$ In fact we construct a subset that is homeomorphic to the Cantor set.)

(2).(a). If X is Hausdorff and $Y$ is the intersection of a countable family of completely metrizable subspaces of $X$, then $Y$ is completely metrizable.

(2).(b). If $X$ is completely metrizable and $Y$ is an open subset of $X$ then Y is completely metrizable.

(2).(c). Corollary to (2)(a) and (2)(b): A $G_{\delta}$ subset of $\mathbb R$ is completely metrizable.

So if $S$ is a $G_{\delta}$ subset of $\mathbb R$ and $S$ is dense in $\mathbb R,$ then by (2)(c), $S$ is completely metrizable.And $S$ has no isolated points (because it is dense in $\mathbb R$). So by (1), $S$ is uncountable.

The results (1) and (2) are of interest, but the usefulness of the Baire category theorem is illustrated by using it to directly prove that $\mathbb Q $ is not $G_{\delta}$ in $\mathbb R.$