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$ A \subset B $ is a ring extension. Let $ y, z \in B $ elements which satisfy quadratic integral dependance $ y^2+ay+b=0 $ and $ z^2+cz+d=0 $ over $ A $. Find explicit integral dependance relations for $ y+z $ and $ yz $.

It is given this hint

start by assuming $1/2 \in A $ and completing the square

I'm stuck with the computations, and I'm feel like I'm not going anywhere.

EDIT: According to me the integral dependance of the sum has "degree" 4 (analogy with the results in Fields extensions) or more generally a multiple of 2. But I don't know how to use this supposition to score some results. Obviously this integral dependance has to exists.

EDIT2: Tried to do a calculation similar to the construction of the minimal polynomial of let's say $\sqrt {2}+\sqrt {3} $ but I can't control factors like $ Axy $ where $ A $ represents a generical value in $ A $

Can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance.

user26857
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Riccardo
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1 Answers1

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Follow the idea of the next exercise or you may want to start with writing $$y^2+ay+b=0\Longrightarrow y=\frac{-a-\sqrt{a^2-4b}}{2}\text{ or }y=\frac{-a+\sqrt{a^2-4b}}{2}.$$ For a while choose $y=\frac{-a-\sqrt{a^2-4b}}{2}$. Same for $z^2+cz+d=0$.

Then $y+z=\frac{-(a+c)-(\sqrt{a^2-4b}+\sqrt{c^2-4d})}{2}$ $$\Longrightarrow (y+z)+\frac{a+c}{2}=-\frac{\sqrt{a^2-4b}+\sqrt{c^2-4d}}{2}$$ By first, squaring both sides you will earn a monic relation for $y+z$ but it has (only) one sqrt so after squaring it for second time you will have a monic relation with no sqrt at $(A[\frac{1}{2}])[T]$. If $\frac{1}{2}\in A$ then everything is finished without needing computing the exact relations but if you simplify it, no coefficient will have $\frac{1}{2}$.

The same method will work for $xy$ but I have doubt if the second method give us a better monic relation than a relation at $(A[\frac{1}{2}])[T]$, you may want to compute it to see.

For those who couldn't simplify!

After making first square you will have; $$(y+z)^2+(a+c)(y+z)+\frac{(a+c)^2}{4}=\frac{a^2-4b+c^2+2\sqrt{a^2-4b}\sqrt{c^2-4d}}{4}$$ $$(y+z)^2+(a+c)(y+z)+\frac{2ac}{4}=-b-d +\frac{\sqrt{a^2-4b}\sqrt{c^2-4d}}{2}$$ Now we go for the second squaring, but as we want to get rid of radicals we take $-b-d$ to the left hand side and then we square sides. $$(y+z)^4+2(a+c)(y+z)^3+2(\frac{ac}{2}+b+d)(y+z)^2+2(a+c)(\frac{ac}{2}+b+d)(y+z)+(\frac{ac}{2}+b+d)^2=\frac{(a^2-4b)(c^2-4d)}{4}$$ It's obvious that all coefficients will be in $A$ and won't have $\frac{1}{2}$ and we only need to pay attention to the constant coefficient. $$(\frac{a^2c^2}{4}+b^2+d^2+acb+acd+2bd)-(\frac{a^2c^2}{4}-a^2d-bc^2+4bd)$$ Now one can see the simplified form and for sure there is no fractions like $\frac{1}{2}$ or $\frac{1}{4}$.

For $xy$ we will encounter 3 radicals! What can we do?

Don;t be afraid! 3 radicals is not a very scay case yet. For getting rid of 3 radicals in an equation like $a+\sqrt{b}+\sqrt{c}+\sqrt{d}=0$ do as following;

$$a+\sqrt{b}+\sqrt{c}+\sqrt{d}=0\Longrightarrow a+\sqrt{b}=-(\sqrt{c}+\sqrt{d})$$ Take a square $$a^2+2a\sqrt{b}+b=c+d+2\sqrt{cd}$$ Then we are in case with two radicals; $$a^2+b-c-d=2\sqrt{b}+2\sqrt{cd}$$

Now let's be sure that we won't have coefficients with $\frac{1}{2}$ and so on.

$$xy=\frac{a+\sqrt{a^2-4b}}{2}\frac{c^2+\sqrt{c^2-4d}}{2}=\frac{ac+a\sqrt{c^2-4d}+c\sqrt{a^2-4b}+\sqrt{a^2-4b}\sqrt{c^2-4d}}{4}$$

$$xy-\frac{ac}{4}-\frac{\sqrt{(a^2-4b)(c^2-4d)}}{4}=\frac{a}{4}\sqrt{c^2-4d}+\frac{c}{4}\sqrt{a^2-4b}$$

$$(xy)^2+\frac{a^2c^2}{16}+\frac{(a^2-4b)(c^2-4d)}{16}-\frac{ac}{2}(xy)-\frac{(a^2-4b)(c^2-4d)}{2}((xy)-\frac{ac}{4})=\frac{a^2}{16}(c^2-4d)+\frac{c^2}{16}(a^2-4b)+\frac{ac}{8}\sqrt{(c^2-4d)(a^2-4b)}$$

$$(xy)^2+\frac{a^2c^2}{16}+\frac{a^2c^2}{16}-\frac{a^2d}{4}-\frac{bc^2}{4}+bd-\frac{ac}{2}(xy)-\frac{a^2c^2}{16}+\frac{a^2d}{4}-\frac{c^2a^2}{16}+\frac{bx^2}{4}=(\frac{ac}{8}+\frac{1}{2}(xy)-\frac{ac}{8})\sqrt{(c^2-4d)(a^2-4b)}$$

$$(xy)^2-\frac{ac}{2}(xy)+bd=\frac{1}{2}(xy)\sqrt{(c^2-4d)(a^2-4b)}$$

$$(xy)^4-ac(xy)^3-\frac{a^2c^2}{4}(xy)^2+2bd(xy)^2-acbd(xy)+b^2d^2=\frac{1}{4}(xy)^2(c^2-4d)(a^2-4b)$$

And in the end

$$(xy)^4-ac(xy)^3+(c^2b+da^2-2bd)(xy)^2-acbd(xy)+b^2d^2=0$$

  • I don't see how to simplify it so you won't have $\frac{1}{2}$ and the polynomial remains monic. – Smurf Sep 18 '15 at 12:50
  • Let me try by myself a couple of times more. Thank you anyway, there it goes your upvote – Smurf Sep 19 '15 at 09:42
  • Thank you, I finally found my error. Although would it be possible to get that result without using roots? The hint says completing squares so I guess we can start from $(y-\frac{a}{2})^2=\frac{a^2-4b}{4}$ and the same for $z$, I've tried multiplying and adding but I can't manage to get rid of every term which is not $x+y$ – Smurf Sep 19 '15 at 11:04
  • If you try to do the same with $xy$ you get 3 roots instead of 2 so they won't go away as easy – Smurf Sep 20 '15 at 11:13
  • Yes that's what I've done, but you can get rid of denominators that way. I expanded everything. – Smurf Sep 20 '15 at 12:22
  • Sorry to bother you with my mistakes again. I found another error on my calculations, this method works perfectly for $xy$. – Smurf Sep 20 '15 at 16:29
  • @Jorge I'm happy you could arrive to the end point ^_^ Anyway, I added it, if there is a typo tell me as I didn't compare it with my note again after typing. Also you can remove comments that are not in use anymore as the website policy prefer comments that add something. Also if you liked, write a little about yourself in your profile, I'm carious to know you more. – AmirHosein Sadeghimanesh Sep 20 '15 at 19:39