1

I want to compute a surface-integral, but using cylindrical coordinates.

I'll denote the Cartesian coordinate system on $\mathbb{R^3}$ by $\mathbb{R}^3_{xyz}$, and the cylindrical by $\mathbb{R}^3_{\rho \theta z}$. Let $$\textbf{F}(x,y,z) = \begin{bmatrix}F_x(x,y,z) \\ F_y(x,y,z) \\ F_z(x,y,z) \end{bmatrix}$$ be a vector-field. Let $S \subset \mathbb{R}^3_{xyz}$ be the surface I've marked in black on the right below. I wish to compute the flux of $\textbf{F}$ out of $S$, i.e. $\int_S \textbf{F} \cdot \hat{n} \, dS $, where $\hat{n}$ is a unit-vector normal to $S$, pointing outward. Clearly, this calls for cylindrical coordinates. Denote by

$$ \phi(\rho, \theta, z) =\begin{bmatrix} \rho \cos \theta \\ \rho \sin \theta \\ z\end{bmatrix} \quad , \quad \phi^{-1}(x,y,z) =\begin{bmatrix} \sqrt{x^2+y^2} \\ \arctan(y,x) \\ z\end{bmatrix} $$ the standard change-of-variables. In orange I've drawn $\phi^{-1}(S)$.

My approach (which I'm not sure of): I can write $\textbf{F}$ as a two-form: $\alpha = F_x \, dy \wedge dz \ + \ F_y \, dz \wedge dx \ +\ F_z \, dx \wedge dy$. And then try to pull it back, i.e. compute $\phi^{\star} \alpha$. However I don't know how to compute $\phi^{\star}(dy \wedge dz)$ (or any other one, for that matter). Even then - How do I treat the $\hat{n}$ part? Somehow I feel there must be some nice way to compute the surface-integral. This is all in part for eventually computing the divergence of $\textbf{F}$ using cylindrical coordinates. Cylindrical plot


First Edit:

Following the suggestion, I'm instead using a simpler parametrization for $S$. Let $f(\rho, z)=(\rho \cos \theta, \rho \sin \theta, z)$. Then we can compute and get that the normal pointing out of the black surface $S$ is:

$$\tag{1} \hat{n} = \textbf{-} \big(\frac{\partial f}{\partial \rho} \times \frac{\partial f}{\partial z}\big) = - \begin{bmatrix} \sin \theta \\ \cos \theta \\ 0 \end{bmatrix}$$

if we write down

$$\tag{2} \textbf{F} = F_\rho \hat{\rho} + F_\theta \hat{\theta} + F_z \hat{z} = \begin{bmatrix} F_\rho \cos \theta - F_{\theta} \sin \theta \\ F_\rho \sin \theta + F_\theta \cos \theta \\ F_z \end{bmatrix} $$ then

$$\tag{3} \textbf{F} \cdot \hat{n} = \begin{bmatrix} F_\rho \cos \theta - F_{\theta} \sin \theta \\ F_\rho \sin \theta + F_\theta \cos \theta \\ F_z \end{bmatrix} \cdot \begin{bmatrix} -\sin \theta \\ -\cos \theta \\ 0 \end{bmatrix} = -2 F_{\rho} \sin \theta \cos \theta + F_\theta (\sin ^2 \theta - \cos^2 \theta)$$

And I don't see how that helps me. I wish to compute sums of surfaces integrals, and then finally diving by the volume, in order to compute the divergence.


Second edit:

Somewhere in my computation of the div formula I have a mistake, since I don't get the right result:

I'm given $\textbf{F} = F_{\rho} \hat{\rho} + F_{\theta} \hat{\theta} + F_z \hat{z}$. Let $V \subset \mathbb{R}^3_{\rho \theta z}$ be the box depiected on the left, with sides length $\Delta \rho, \Delta \theta, \Delta z$. Let $\Delta V$ denote the volume of V, then $\Delta V = \Delta \rho \cdot \Delta \theta \cdot \Delta z$. Let $(\rho_0, \theta_0, z_0)$ be a point right in the center of the box. I wish to compute

$$\tag{4} \mathop{div} \textbf{F} = \lim_{\Delta V \to 0} \frac{1}{\Delta V} \int_{\partial V} \textbf{F} \cdot \hat{n} \mathop{dS}$$ Let $S_1, \ldots, S_6$ denote the six faces of the box. Then $$ \int_{\partial V} \textbf{F} \cdot \hat{n} \mathop{dS} = \int_{S_1} \textbf{F} \cdot \hat{n}_{S_1} \mathop{dS} + \ldots + \int_{S_6} \textbf{F} \cdot \hat{n}_{S_6} \mathop{dS} $$

Let $S_1$ be the face drawn in orange. Then $\hat{n}_{S_1} = \begin{bmatrix} 0 \\ -1 \\ 0 \end{bmatrix}_{(\hat{\rho}, \hat{\theta},\hat{z})}$. We can approximate the flux out of $S_1$ by evaluating $\textbf{F} \cdot \hat{n}_{S_1}$ at some point on $S_1$, and multiplying by the area of $S_1$:

\begin{align} \tag{5} \int_{S_1} \textbf{F} \cdot \hat{n}_{S_1} \mathop{dS} &\approx \textbf{F}(\rho_0, \theta_0 - \frac{\Delta \theta}{2}, z_0) \cdot \hat{n}_{S_1} \Delta \rho \cdot \Delta z \\ &= F_{\theta}(\rho_0, \theta_0 - \frac{\Delta \theta}{2}, z_0) \cdot \Delta \rho \cdot \Delta z \end{align} Similarly, we can compute for $S_2$, the face across it: \begin{align} \tag{6} \int_{S_2} \textbf{F} \cdot \hat{n}_{S_2} \mathop{dS} \approx F_{\theta}(\rho_0, \theta_0 + \frac{\Delta \theta}{2}, z_0) \cdot \Delta \rho \cdot \Delta z \end{align}

Summing, we have \begin{align} \tag{7} \int_{S_1 + S_2} \textbf{F} \cdot \hat{n} \mathop{dS} &\approx \Big( F_{\theta}(\rho_0, \theta_0 + \frac{\Delta \theta}{2}, z_0) - F_{\theta}(\rho_0, \theta_0 - \frac{\Delta \theta}{2}, z_0) \Big) \cdot \Delta \rho \cdot \Delta z \\ &= \frac{F_{\theta}(\rho_0, \theta_0 + \frac{\Delta \theta}{2}, z_0) - F_{\theta}(\rho_0, \theta_0 - \frac{\Delta \theta}{2}, z_0)}{\Delta \theta} \cdot \Delta \rho \cdot \Delta \theta \cdot \Delta z \end{align} and then we get that \begin{align} \tag{8} \lim_{\Delta V \to 0 }\frac{1}{\Delta V} \int_{S_1 + S_2} \textbf{F} \cdot \hat{n} \mathop{dS} &= \lim_{\Delta V \to 0 } \frac{F_{\theta}(\rho_0, \theta_0 + \frac{\Delta \theta}{2}, z_0) - F_{\theta}(\rho_0, \theta_0 - \frac{\Delta \theta}{2}, z_0)}{\Delta \theta} \\ &= \lim_{\Delta \theta \to 0 } \frac{F_{\theta}(\rho_0, \theta_0 + \frac{\Delta \theta}{2}, z_0) - F_{\theta}(\rho_0, \theta_0 - \frac{\Delta \theta}{2}, z_0)}{\Delta \theta} \\ &= \frac{\partial F_{\theta}}{\partial \theta} \big|_{(\rho_0, \theta_0, z_0)} \end{align}

Repeating this argument for the rest of the faces, I eventually get

\begin{align} \tag{9} \mathop{div} \textbf{F} = \frac{\partial F_{\rho}}{\partial \rho} + \frac{\partial F_{\theta}}{\partial \theta} + \frac{\partial F_z}{\partial z} \end{align}

which is incorrect.

blz
  • 615
  • 1
    This answer shows how to do it. – Kurt G. Sep 02 '23 at 14:33
  • @KurtG. I've read the answer, and have added an edit to my question. – blz Sep 02 '23 at 20:49
  • 1
    Progress! According to formula (3) in that answer you write the components of $\mathbf{F}$ as functions of $\rho,\theta,z$ then dot $\mathbf{F}$ with your lovely $\mathbf{n}$ and integrate over $\rho,z,.$ If you take a concrete example and perform all steps I can check the result. – Kurt G. Sep 02 '23 at 20:56
  • @KurtG. I'm trying to solve for a general vector field, so I could compute the divergence eventually. – blz Sep 02 '23 at 21:26
  • 1
    You did not do what I said. That $\mathbf{F}$ in your (2) is expressed in cylindrical coordinates. We need it in Cartesian coordinates as function of the parameters $\rho,z$ that parametrizes the black surface. These parameters were $u,v$ in the linked answer. Don't overthink it. This is pullback and we'll get there. – Kurt G. Sep 02 '23 at 21:30
  • 1
    I am a bit confused though about the start of OP. What is the surface you are integrating over. In which coordinates and how is it given initially ? – Kurt G. Sep 02 '23 at 21:33
  • I'm given vector field $\textbf{F}=F_{\rho} \hat{\rho} + F_{\theta} \hat{\theta} + F_z \hat{z}$, and my aim is to derive the div formula in cylindrical coordinates, by summing the six surface integrals of $\textbf{F}$ over the faces of the cube in $\mathbb{R}_{\rho \theta z}$ , displayed on the left. – blz Sep 03 '23 at 05:17
  • 1
    We have a vector field $\mathbf{F}$ whose components are given in cylindrical coordinates and want to integrate $\mathbf{F}\cdot\mathbf{n}$ over one face of a "cube" that is also given in cylindrical coordinates. The outward pointing unit normal vector at that black surface has only one non zero component which is $n_\theta=-1,.$ Therefore $\mathbf{F}\cdot\mathbf{n}=-F_\theta,.$ Integrate this over $(\rho,z),.$ The problem is actually quite simple and pull back of differential forms is not needed. A better example to learn this was the link in my first comment. – Kurt G. Sep 03 '23 at 06:32
  • 1
    Note that there seems a sign error in your formula (1) and that this normal vector's components are Cartesian. The answer here shows that the normal vector with cylindrical components is $(0,-1,0)$ as I just mentioned. – Kurt G. Sep 03 '23 at 06:35
  • 1
    Just saw your last edit. I you absolutely want to do all of this in cylindrical coordinates (to prove the limit formula for div Cartesians are just as good) I do not think that you can repeat all of this naively for all six faces. Esp. the two curved ones might be tricky. In short. See this answer for divergence formulas w.r.t different bases and in particular the metric $g$ in cylindricals. – Kurt G. Sep 03 '23 at 07:51
  • @KurtG. Thanks, I guess that either $\frac{\partial F_{\theta}}{\partial \theta} \neq \lim_{\Delta \theta \to 0} \frac{F_{\theta}({\textbf{p}+\Delta \theta}) - F_{\theta}(\textbf{p})}{\Delta \theta}$ or $\frac{\partial F_{\rho}}{\partial \rho} \neq \lim_{\Delta \rho \to 0} \frac{F_{\rho}({\textbf{p}+\Delta \rho}) - F_{\rho}(\textbf{p})}{\Delta \rho}$. I don't know tensor analysis (or Weyl-Voss). So I'll just wait until I'll learn it. – blz Sep 03 '23 at 10:29

0 Answers0