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I have doubt with Eq. (8.1) in [1] with the item "subst(y,19,number(y))" . The 1st parameter of subst(), i.e. y, is the Godel number of some formula, and the 2nd parameter, i.e. 19, means there is a free variable y in that very said formula. Doesn‘t This operation violate the law of identity?

[1] K. Gödel, “Über formal unentscheidbare Sätze der Principia Mathematica und verwandter Systeme I,” Monatshefte für Mathematik und Physik, vol. 38, no. 1, pp. 173–198, 1931. English Translation "On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica and Related Systems" by Marin Hirzel, Nov. 27, 2000.

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  • The question is quite clear here and no other references are needed. Is my interpretation of the two meanings of THE one symbol "y" correct? Is it allowed in logic? @MauroALLEGRANZA – Yang Xuezhi Jun 28 '23 at 06:08
  • But it is. You may have got a wrong understanding of it. In Godel's rhetoric, x is represented by 17, y by 19. – Yang Xuezhi Jun 28 '23 at 06:09
  • 1,1,... are only used in the illustration of variable of type I. In the whole arguments of Theorem VI, they doesn't show up at all. Instead, the line just below Eq. (8.1) says, "Intuitively, Q(x,y) means x doesn't prove y(y) ", using y as the free variable. I provide the link of my copy for your reference: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4726779/how-does-eq-8-1-mean-in-the-english-translation-of-godels-original-paper?noredirect=1#comment10017244_4726779 – Yang Xuezhi Jun 28 '23 at 06:50
  • You should know, the 2nd var 19, can only be interpreted as y to insure self reference. And this interpretation is consistent with the Godel's own words below Eq(8.1) and (11) and also all popular sciences of Godel's proof: https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-godels-incompleteness-theorems-work-20200714 – Yang Xuezhi Jun 28 '23 at 07:01
  • If you were right and 19 were for y1 instead of y, subst(p, 19, number(p)) in (13) would have done nothing because there is no y1 in p, since all the y1 in y has been replaced by number(y). – Yang Xuezhi Jun 28 '23 at 08:45
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    I don't think this is posted in good faith. The OP has an agenda, not a question. – Arturo Magidin Jun 29 '23 at 02:51
  • So, you don't want to persuade me, but to kill the question, again? – Yang Xuezhi Jun 29 '23 at 03:16
  • This is not a debate site, not a place for "persuasion", nor a site for you to announce results you believe you have found. If, as it is apparent, you do not actually have a question, then you are in the wrong place. – Arturo Magidin Jun 29 '23 at 03:45
  • If this is a place for discussion, it is place for debate, persuasion, announce what you believe of have found. It is a commonplace knowledge. – Yang Xuezhi Jun 29 '23 at 03:50
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    Well, this is not a "place for discussion"; it is a question-and-answer site. Thus, your premise is false and you are in the wrong place. – Arturo Magidin Jun 29 '23 at 03:54
  • So, you will delete all discussions in this site, right? – Yang Xuezhi Jun 29 '23 at 03:55
  • And, you don't know question-and-answer is a process of discussion. – Yang Xuezhi Jun 29 '23 at 03:57
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    I do not have that power, and you are being both disingenuous and fatuous. If you want to engage in a discussion of how you believe to have found an error in Goedel's paper, and thus follow a long and distinguished line of well-established cranks, don't pretend you are asking questions. Just take it to usenet. – Arturo Magidin Jun 29 '23 at 03:57
  • See also this recent (now deleted) answer from the OP: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/4737496 – Anne Bauval Jul 17 '23 at 09:00

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Kurt Gödel's 1931 construction, with respect to a specified formal system $K$, uses predicate $\text B_K (x,y)$ [$\text {proofFor}_K$ in your English translation] that reads "$x$ codes a proof (in formal system $K$) of formula coded by $y$" and then $\text {Bew}(y) = \exists x \text B_K (x,y)$ that reads: "there is a proof (in formal system $K$) of $y$", i.e. "$y$ is provable in $K$".

Using these predicates he defines the relation:

$$Q(x,y) \equiv \lnot \text B_K [x,\text {Subst} \ y(^{19}_{Z(y)})]$$

that amounts to saying that "$x$ is not a proof of a certain formula ..." [the author uses $17$ and $19$ respectively to encode the two first variables of the formal language: $z_1, z_2$.]

The expression "$\text {subst} (y, v, n)$" [original: $\text{Subst} \ y(^v_n)$ ] is not a formula in the formal language but an expression in the meta-language describing an operation performed on the syntactical objects of the formal language.

See footnote 20, page 600 of English translation:

"Note that "$\text {Subst}$" is a metamathematical sign."

How we have to read this operation?

To say that $\text{Subst} \ y(^v_c)$ is equal to $b$ means that for a formula (coded by) $y$, and for a variable coded by $v$ [i.e. by $19$ in the case above] and for a term $c$ [example: $\text {number}(0)$], the result of the "subst" operation will be a formula (coded by) $b$ where the free occurrences of variable $v$ have been replaced with term $c$.

A very simple example can be the formula: $(z_1 = \text {number}(0))$.

If $y$ is the code of the formula [see e.g. here and here for practical exercises in encoding], we have that:

$\text {Subst} \ y(^\text {19}_{\text {number}(0)})$ [i.e. $\text {subst}(y, 19, \text {number}(0))$]

will be the formula: $(\text {number}(0) = \text {number}(0))$.

You have to be careful in understanding the interplay between the formal language of arithmetic, that speaks of numbers, and the metalanguage, that speaks of syntactical objects of the formal language: terms, formulas.

Thus zero and one are numbers whose names in the formal language are $0$ and $s0$ respectively.

According to Gödel's original encoding: $1$ for symbol $0$ and $3$ for symbol $s$, we have that the term (name) in the formal language for number one will be encoded with $2^3 \cdot 3^1=24$.

So, we have three "players" here: the number one, its name in the formal language $s0$, and its "numerical code" [the "Gödel number"] $24$.

In order to master the machinery of the theorem, you have to take care of this interplay between syntactical objects: variables and terms in general, that are used in the formal language to "name" numbers, and numbers used in the metalanguage to name expressions of the formal language.


Regarding the resource How Gödel’s Proof Works that you are referring to, the encoding machinery is slightly different [but see the simple exercise with the encoding of formula $(0=0)$].

Maybe the source of confusion is the statement:

"He considered a metamathematical statement along the lines of “The formula with Gödel number sub(y, y, 17) cannot be proved.” Recalling the notation we just learned, the formula with Gödel number sub(y, y, 17) is the one obtained by taking the formula with Gödel number y (some unknown variable) and substituting this variable y anywhere there’s a symbol whose Gödel number is 17 (that is, anywhere there’s a y)."

The crux is the point "[the] number y (some unknown variable) ": $y$ is not a variable of the formal language, like $x_1, y_1$ but a variable in the metalanguage, standing for an unspecified number.

Thus, the correct statement must be:

the formula with Gödel number $\text {subst}(y, 17, \text {number}(y))$ is the one obtained by taking the formula with Gödel number $y$ [a code to be computed according to the encoding mechanism] and substituting the term $\text {number}(y)$ anywhere there’s the symbol whose Gödel number is $17$ (that is, a free occurrence of variable $z_1$).

  • How do you explain, there is no such saying as "a free occurrence of variable 1" in Godel's original paper, but y(y) and 19(19). No matter how many times you emphasize 19 is for y1, I don't see any sign of it. – Yang Xuezhi Jun 28 '23 at 10:30
  • "The crux is the point "number y (some unknown variable) ": is not a variable of the formal language, like 1,1, but a variable in the metalanguage, standing for an unspecified number."

    In whatever language, meta of non-meta, variables are inevitable. All variables stand for unspecified numbers. So, you are talking a matter of course. BTW, I have been sufficiently careful about what you said are the 3 players.

    – Yang Xuezhi Jun 28 '23 at 10:52
  • When you say the source https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-godels-proof-works-20200714/ is incorrect, you must notice the fact that their scheme achieves self reference successfully, of course namely (with logical error), and you have failed to do that with your interpretation of subst(y, 19, number(y)), even namely. – Yang Xuezhi Jun 28 '23 at 13:27
  • I noticed that "Subst is a metamathematical sign". Does this note mean anything special? or, it is just a claim that I am right? – Yang Xuezhi Jun 29 '23 at 12:11
  • @YangXuezhi - very simple example: the symbol $\to$ is part of the formal language of propositional and predicate logic, while the symbol $\vdash$ (it is derivable) is part of the metalanguage ("a metamathematical sign"). In the context of formal arithmetic, $+$ and $\times$ are symbols of the formal language, while $\text {Subst}$ is a symbol used in the metalanguage to describe an operation performed with the expressions (formulas and terms) of the formal language. – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Jun 29 '23 at 12:46
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    What are you alluding to with "a claim that I am right?" The previous claim that in Gödel's paper "there is an error that invalidates Gödel's whole arguments. The answer is NO. The question about the Subst operation: "Doesn‘t this operation violate the law of identity?" The answer is NO. – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Jun 29 '23 at 12:51
  • Let's assume you were right and 19 referred to 1, maybe you could answer several questions with Y/N. 1. There are no 1s in p after subst(y,19,number(y)), right? 2. subst(p, 19, number(p)) will do nothing since there are no 1s in p, and then equals p, right? 3. Then subst(p, 19, number(p))=p doesn't talk about itself, and you have failed to achieve self reference, right? 4. So, you are wrong, right? – Yang Xuezhi Jun 29 '23 at 22:27