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In my linear algebra course, we defined the positive definite of the inner product where $\langle z,z\rangle \ge 0$. My professor stated that because of this $\langle z,z\rangle \notin\mathbb{C}$?

What is the definition of a positive so that they do not exist for complex numbers? Could you not simply form a definition of magnitude? Why is this definition not useful so that the value of the inner product is restricted to $\mathbb{R}$?

Arturo Magidin
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  • Use \langle and \rangle for the delimiters, not < and >. Compare $\langle z,z\rangle$ with $<z,z>$. – Arturo Magidin Jun 02 '23 at 04:06
  • The complex numbers cannot be ordered in a way which is compatible with their algebraic structure, see for example https://math.stackexchange.com/a/1184647/42969 – Martin R Jun 02 '23 at 04:56

2 Answers2

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The ordering on $\mathbb{R}$ is "compatible with the operations."

This means the following: there is a subset $P$ of $\mathbb{R}$, called the "positive number", such that:

  1. $\mathbb{R}$ obeys a trichotomy law: every $r\in \mathbb{R}$ satisfies one and only one of $r\in P$, $-r\in P$, and $r=0$.
  2. If $a,b\in P$, then $a+b\in P$ and $ab\in P$.

Then one defines $a\lt b$ if and only if $b-a\in P$, and $a\leq b$ if and only if $a=b$ or $a\lt b$.

With these definitions, we obtain the "usual" properties : if $a\leq b$ then for all $c$ we have $a+c\leq b+c$; if $a\leq b$ and $c\leq d$ then $a+c\leq b+d$; if $a\leq b$ and $c\gt 0$, then $ac\leq bc$. Etc. That is, obtain an "ordered field".

However, there is no way to define an order on $\mathbb{C}$ that is compatible with the operations. That is, there is no subset $P$ of $\mathbb{C}$ that will satisfy properties 1 and 2 above.

To see why, note that if we had a class of "positive complex numbers", then we must have $1$ positive: because either $1\in P$ and we are done, or else $-1\in P$, and then $1=(-1)(-1)\in P$. So, either way, $1\in P$. But because $1\in P$, we must have $-1\notin P$.

Now, if $i\in P$, then $-1=(i)(i)\in P$, which contradicts trichotomy. And if $i\notin P$, then $-i\in P$, so $(-i)(-i)=-1\in P$... again contradicting trichotomy. Thus, there is no class of "positive complex numbers" satisfying 1 and 2 above, and hence no order on $\mathbb{C}$ that is compatible with the operations.

Because of that, when dealing with the algebraic side of $\mathbb{C}$, such as when working with vector spaces over $\mathbb{C}$, we do not put an order on all of $\mathbb{C}$. We still have the order on $\mathbb{R}$, which we can use to compare magnitudes of complex numbers, or real numbers. So when we have a complex number $z\in\mathbb{C}$, and a real number $r$, we only write $z\geq r$ if $z$ is real, and $z\geq r$ as real numbers. In particular, if we write $\langle z,z\rangle\geq 0$, then we are saying that $\langle z,z\rangle$ is real and nonnegative.

(You can define all sorts of orders on $\mathbb{C}$; for example, the lexicographic order on the complex plane gives $a+bi\lt c+di$ if and only if $a\lt c$, or $a=c$ and $b\lt d$; but this order does not play well with addition and multiplication; and no ordering on $\mathbb{C}$ plays well with addition and multiplication, so when you care about the algebraic structure on $\mathbb{C}$, you do not put an order on it except perhaps for ad hoc arguments.)

Arturo Magidin
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  • 'Thus, there is no class of "positive complex numbers"'. I imagine that is not a complete proof. Is the only way to prove this rigorously to try all possible classifications for the subset $P \in \mathbb{C}$? – user129393192 Jun 03 '23 at 19:17
  • @user129393192 This is a complete proof that there is no class of positive complex numbers,in the sense of classes satisfying the listed properties. What makes you imagine otherwise? If you want to change the definition of what it means to be a class of positive numbers in a ring, then what is the point? – Arturo Magidin Jun 03 '23 at 19:20
  • Why would you not have to prove that every possible subset $P \in \mathbb{C}$ does not satisfy the axioms you defined for something to be positive? I have not studied rings (I am in my second course of linear algebra). I was just curious of the proof method. – user129393192 Jun 03 '23 at 19:22
  • @user129393192 I did prove that. As I explicitly prove, any subset of $\mathbb{C}$ that satisfies the two properties must contain $1$, and then it cannot contain either $i$ nor $-i$, thus violating axiom 1. So it is impossible for any subset to satisfy the two conditions. – Arturo Magidin Jun 03 '23 at 19:25
  • So it is the trichotomy law, which defines this meaning of positive that requires them to behave a certain way (though it was generalized for the Real numbers), and you are saying that the Complex numbers don't satisfy $ab \in P$ meaning that they violate trichotomy? – user129393192 Jun 07 '23 at 17:15
  • @user129393192 Please read what I wrote instead of guessing wildly. I said what I said. No set of complex numbers can satisfy both trichotomy, and closure under sums and products. I proved this. I proved that if you assume you have a subset of $\mathbb{C}$ that satisfies both properties, you obtain a contradiction. This means that no subset of $\mathbb{C}$ can satisfy both these properties. It isn't "the trichotomy law". It's both properties acting together. What is hard about understanding "no subset can satisfy both properties"? – Arturo Magidin Jun 07 '23 at 17:25
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Arturo Magidin's answer is brilliant. I did however want to give you a different perspective on what we should do with complex vector spaces.

The important geometrical perspective is that $\langle z,z\rangle$ should be the norm sqaured $|z|^2$. Using this and the cosine law, one is then able to recover a notion of angle between vectors.

When we talk about a complex vector space $V$, the analogous form to consider is not an inner product but a Hermitian form.

For vector spaces over $\mathbb{R}$, a symmetric matrix $A$ defines an inner product and vice versa. i.e. $\langle v,w\rangle :=v^T A w$ defines an inner product. Since $A$ is symmetric and $v^T A w$ is a scalar (or more precisely a $1\times 1$ matrix), $\langle v,w\rangle=(v^T Aw)^T=w^T A^T v=w^T A v=\langle w,v\rangle$. We have shown that this gives you a symmetric form. You can in a similar fashion check other properties of being an inner product (i.e. bilinearity).

If we want to consider vector spaces over $\mathbb{C}$, a Hermitian matrix defines a Hermitian form. A Hermitian matrix $A$ is a matrix such that $A^{\dagger}=A$ where the dagger operation is the conjugate transpose, $A^{\dagger}=\overline{(A^T)}$.

A Hermitian matrix gives a Hermitian form defined by $v^{\dagger} A w$. This gives a form that is linear in the second component and conjugate linear in the first component.

daruma
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