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I'm trying to get a better understanding of ultraproducts and their typical uses.

To that end, I'm wondering what happens if we fix an ultrafilter $U \in 2^{2^{\mathbb{N}}} $ and look at $\prod_{i \in \mathbb{N}}$ where $S_i$ is the symmetric group associated with $i \in \mathbb{N}$.

The result is a group, and by the intution behind Łoś's theorem (proofwiki), it should satisfy the properties that "most" (with heavy scare quotes) symmetric groups satisfy.

However, being a symmetric group in the first place is not a first-order property, so I'm curious what group you actually end up with (and whether it's sensitive to the choice of $U$).


Suppose $I$ is a poset.

$F \in 2^{2^I}$ is a filter if and only if

  • $F$ is nonempty.
  • It holds that $\forall x \in F \mathop. \forall y \in F \mathop. \exists z \in F \mathop. z \le x \land z \le y$.
  • It holds that $\forall x \in F \mathop. \forall y \in I \mathop. x \le y \to y \in F$.

$F$ is a proper filter if and only if $F \neq 2^I$.

$U$ is an ultrafilter if and only if

  • $U$ is a filter on $I$.
  • $U$ is not equal to $2^I$.
  • Every proper filter $F$ extending $U$ is equal to $U$.

An ultrafilter is principal if and only if it is the upward closure of a single element of $I$.

Let $(I, \le)$ be $(\mathbb{N}, \le^\mathbb{N})$.

Let $U$ be a fixed non-principal ultrafilter on $I$.

Let $S_k$ be the $n$th symmetric group as usual.

I'm curious about $\prod_{i \in I} S_k / U$ (which I'll be writing as $\prod^U_{i \in I} S_k$ for convenience.

If we restrict our attention to algebraic theories, then we can define the truth of a sentence in $\prod^U_{i \in I} S_k$ as follows.

$\prod^U_{i \in I} S_k \models t_1 = t_2$ if and only if if the set of indices for which the $i$th component of $t_1$ and $t_2$ are equal is in $U$. By the nonemptiness of $U$ and the upward-closedness property of $U$, it holds that $I \in U$.

The interpretation of $f(\vec{a})$ is the equivalence class associated with $\langle f(a_0), f(a_1), \cdots \rangle$ where $a_i$ is the $i$th component of the canonical representative of the equivalence class $\vec{a}$.

I'm pretty sure $\prod^U_{i \in I} S_k$ and that this follows from the fact that $\prod_{i \in I} S_k $ is a group and modding out by the equivalence relation associated with $U$ is a group homomorphism.

$\prod_{i \in I} S_k $ is a Cartesian product of models of an algebraic theory consisting entirely of $\forall$-sentences, so it is again a model of that theory (the theory of groups, not the theory of symmetric groups).

I'm using the non-principalness of $U$ to insist that there isn't a proper subset of indices that completely determines the behavior of $\prod^U_{i \in I} S_k $. Although if I'm being honest, I'm mostly insisting on this because I've heard "non-principal ultrafilter" before.

As an object, $\prod^U_{i \in I} S_k$ is a bit odd.

I'm pretty sure it's infinite, but all of its factors are finite, so we can't prove its infiniteness by constructing an infinite sequence of examples that differ at every index.

Let $G$ be a finite symmetric group, let $g_k$ be $(k \mathop{\text{mod}} |G|)$-th element of the group, where the elements are assigned an index in some arbitrary fashion.

Let $b_i$ be equal to $(S_0)_i, (S_1)_i, (S_2)_i, \cdots$.

I'm pretty sure that $b_0, b_1, b_2, \cdots$ contains infinitely many distinct elements of $\prod^U_{i \in I} S_k$.

I think you can show this by collecting the index sets between identical elements and saying that they intersect to the empty set when there are infinitely many of them ... and therefore that $U$ would have to equal $2^I$ (which contradicts the definition of an ultrafilter) ... but I'm really not sure.

Greg Nisbet
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    "I'm pretty sure it's infinite, but all of its factors are finite, so we can't prove its infiniteness by constructing an infinite sequence of examples that differ at every index." True, but since $U$ is nonprincipal it is enough to find a family of sequences any pair of which differ at cofinitely many indices. And indeed we can find a size-continuum such set - and prove, more generally, that every nontrivial ultraproduct has size at least continuum. – Noah Schweber Jan 15 '22 at 06:14
  • I found this paper which is way too advanced for me. It does mention the object I'm interested in $\prod^U_{i \in \mathbb{N}} S_i$, but the authors are interested in its automorphisms. The fact that they don't identify the group in question, though, suggests to me that it doesn't have a nicer description than $\prod^U_{i \in \mathbb{N}} S_i$. This is very weak evidence though. @NoahSchweber If I use your exercise and post a solution attempt here eventually, will that inconvenience you? I know good exercises are hard to come by. – Greg Nisbet Jan 15 '22 at 06:26
  • Being a symmetric group isn't a first-order property, but there is a sentence of first-order logic which characterizes the symmetric groups among all finite models. See the answer https://math.stackexchange.com/a/4102001/350214 by @AlexKruckman. (This doesn't seem to answer your question though.) – Mitchell Spector Jan 16 '22 at 00:39
  • @NoahSchweber ... can I have a small hint for the exercise in the comments? I tried a diagonalization argument to show that the cardinality of $\prod^U {0, 1}$ is at least $\aleph_1$, but I can't figure out how to extract a new thing that's $U$-inequivalent to all the other values. – Greg Nisbet Jan 20 '22 at 05:06
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    @GregoryNisbet Sorry, that was a horrible typo! I meant to say that if the sets involved are finite but of unbounded size then you get a size-continuum ultraproduct, and if there is a finite bound on their size you just get a finite structure. This is because for each $n$ there is a first-order sentence saying "There are exactly $n$ elements in the domain" - now apply Los. – Noah Schweber Jan 20 '22 at 05:13
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    The cardinality of any ultraproduct of finite structures with increasing sizes is $2^{\aleph_0}$, and there was a question about this some years ago: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1417688/cardinality-of-ultraproduct – Darío G Feb 24 '22 at 20:15
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    If you are only interested in knowing why it must be infinite, notice that by Los' theorem it must satisfy the sentence $\sigma_k:=\exists x_1,\ldots,x_k\left(\bigwedge_{i<j}x_i\neq x_j\right)$, for every $k\in\mathbb{N}$. – Darío G Feb 24 '22 at 20:17
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    Also, it would help if you can point out a specific question. The title suggest that you want to know which group do you get by taking the ultraproduct, but in the body of the question it seems that you are only wondering about the cardinality. – Darío G Feb 24 '22 at 20:19
  • @DaríoG, I'm interested in knowing which group it is. I usually put my primary question in the title and in bold in the part of the question appearing above the first horizontal rule. The stuff appearing below the first horizontal rule is my attempt to answer part of the question myself (in this case, I was attempting to pin down the cardinality of the group in question, since that seems like a necessary first step to pinning down the group itself). – Greg Nisbet Feb 24 '22 at 20:57

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