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Gödel produces a sentence G that is undecidable in PA.

But the statement itself is not uniquely determined. It is generated using some encoding of the metalanguage, referred to as Godel Numbering. Godel's encoding scheme makes use of the coefficients in the prime factorization of a (very large) number. Symbols of PA are given unique prime number codes as shown here: Godel Numbering

A simple way to make an additional set of encodings is to shift the prime numbers associated with each symbol by one prime. So the symbols '0' can by assigned a 3 instead of a 1, and 's' can be assigned a 5 instead of a 3, and so on...

Each shifted encoding scheme will correspond to a different Godel sentence. Let $G_0$ denote the sentence associated with Godel's original scheme, and $G_n$ be the Godel Sentence associated with the encoding scheme where the symbol codes are shifted by $n$ primes.

My question is about the relationship between different Godel Sentences. In particular, are the various Godel Sentences all provable from one another? More formally, for all $m$ and $n$ is the following statement true?

$$PA \cup \{G_m\} \vdash G_n$$

To be clear, $PA \cup \{G_m\}$ is meant to be the axioms of $PA$ with $G_m$, and $G_n$ is a second Godel Sentence of $PA$, not $PA \cup \{G_m\}$.

In some sense, I expect all Godel Sentences to entail$(\models)$ each other in that they're all based on the same provability predicate. But it's not obvious to me that each one can be used to prove$(\vdash)$ the others within the system.

If the Godel Sentences can all be used to prove each other could you kindly provide a sketch of the proof of this result?


Update 5/2/2022:

There seems to be disagreement about the answer I accepted here, which uses reasoning based on properties of primitive recursive functions. So I though it might be worthwhile to ask the opposite question.

If my statement above about $PA \cup \{G_m\}$ is false, can someone please provide a proof sketch of this conjecture? For all $m$ and $n$

$$PA \vdash G_m \iff G_n$$

That is to say that even if $PA$ cannot prove either $G_m$ or $G_n$, it can express their interdependence.

Doug
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  • Provability of a sentence is not affected by the choice of encoding. – omega-stable Nov 06 '21 at 21:50
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    @omega-stable I don't see why the situation should be so simple. To the OP, this is a potentially interesting question but you'll need to give a more precise definition of "metalanguage encoding scheme" before this can really be answered. – Noah Schweber Nov 06 '21 at 22:58
  • @NoahSchweber I expanded my post to include a brief summary of encoding schemes (Godel Numbering) along with a helpful link – Doug Nov 07 '21 at 05:18
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    I think @NoahSchweber's point is that since your question refers to "all encoding schemes", you need to give a precise definition of "encoding scheme" before it's answerable - and before it's possible to verify your intuition that "these encoding schemes should be enumerable". We all know some examples of Gödel codings, but seeing a few examples doesn't clarify what general definition you have in mind. – Alex Kruckman Nov 08 '21 at 01:47
  • I updated the post to include an explicit set of new encoding schemes – Doug Nov 23 '21 at 02:54
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    Provability is not equal to truth in PA, your intuition of their equivalence due to obeying same predicate cannot infer provability equivalence in general... – cinch Nov 29 '21 at 07:31
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    Related: http://jdh.hamkins.org/are-all-godel-sentences-equivalent/ (note that this indicates that the accepted answer is incorrect), https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/372037/is-there-more-than-one-rosser-sentence/372199#372199. – Noah Schweber Dec 18 '21 at 10:34
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    Again, I have to reiterate that the accepted answer here is incorrect. – Noah Schweber Apr 29 '22 at 12:49
  • I think you should make it clear whether you mean 2 Godel statements which either (a) are made by the same procedure which itself doesn't depend on the encoding, but differ only by encoding, or (b) are any 2 arbitrary godel statements under different encodings. – DanielV May 01 '22 at 19:28
  • Daniel, I define it explicitly in the post: “Each shifted encoding scheme will correspond to a different Godel sentence. Let 0 denote the sentence associated with Godel's original scheme, and be the Godel Sentence associated with the encoding scheme where the symbol codes are shifted by primes” – Doug May 02 '22 at 21:23

1 Answers1

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First note that your alternative shifting numbering scheme is acceptable. For example, the number of a wff $P_1 \lor P_2$ ($2^{361}×3^{7}×5^{529}$) under your specific new numbering can be converted to $2^{289}×3^{9}×5^{361}$ under the original Gödel numbering, and any such conversion function must be p.r. too. In other words, you can program in advance to convert any given number under your numbering to Gödel number without open searches due to the fundamental theorem of arithmetic and your specific deterministic simple shifting scheme.

Any Gödel sentence (at least one such sentence exists per diagonal lemma) in PA has the following property: $G↔ \lnot Bew(\ulcorner G \urcorner)$ where $\ulcorner G \urcorner$ is the usual Gödel number of a Gödel sentence, $Bew(y)=∃x(y=\ulcorner \phi \urcorner \land x=\ulcorner \psi \urcorner)$, and $\psi$ is a proof of a sentence $\phi$, and the name $Bew$ is short for beweisbar, the German word for "provable" and was originally used by Gödel to denote the provability formula above (see reference). However, it's a well known result that the numerical provability property $Bew(y)$ is not p.r., otherwise any first order sentence $\phi$ whose Gödel number is $y$ can be p.r. decidable contradicting the first incompleteness theorem. Given $G_0$ is the Gödel sentence associated with Gödel's original scheme and suppose $G_1$ is a Gödel sentence associated with your alternative scheme, of course we have $PA \cup \{G_0\} \vdash G_0 \land Bew(\ulcorner G_0 \urcorner)$ trivially. Although we can always find a p.r. function $f$ converts $\ulcorner G_1 \urcorner$ under your shifting scheme to a number under original Gödel scheme, any recursively axiomatized theory containing PA cannot decide the truth value of the provability predicate $Bew(f(\ulcorner G_1 \urcorner))$ even after adjoining $G_0$ to PA since there's no known theorem to always ensure $f(\ulcorner G_1 \urcorner) = \ulcorner G_0 \urcorner$ and the numeral value of $f(\ulcorner G_1 \urcorner)$ can be arbitrary. So similarly under your description in general $PA \cup \{G_m\} \nvdash G_n$ (the augmented theory can not capture $G_n$).

cinch
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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; the conversation has been moved to chat. – ə̷̶̸͇̘̜́̍͗̂̄︣͟ Dec 19 '21 at 10:36
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    Since I keep putting off adding a detailed response, and comments have been moved to chat, I'll state here for the record that this answer is not correct. (Note in particular that despite the language used in most of the answer, the key "argument" is just "There's no known theorem to always ensure [stuff]." That's not a proof.) – Noah Schweber Apr 29 '22 at 12:49
  • @NoahSchweber I would very much appreciate seeing your response to this question – Doug May 01 '22 at 04:08