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My question is based on this answer by Asaf Karagila. Emphasis mine.

Indeed as a first-order structure, $(\mathbb{R},≤)$ cannot define the operations $+,⋅$ or the constants $0,1$. In fact, even as an ordered group $(\mathbb{R},+,≤)$ cannot define the number 1. These are all simple exercises that can be given after the second week of a first course about model theory.

This passage suggests to me that there should be a reasonably direct way to prove that $1$ is not definable in $(\mathbb{R}, +, \le)$ or the similar structure $(\mathbb{R}, +, 0, \le)$.

I'm curious what the canonical way to prove this fact is. I'm also curious if there's a way to prove this that's "syntactic" rather than "semantic" in nature and doesn't appeal to specific models of the theories in question.


Coming up with an informal argument to prove this is relatively straightforward. Let $M^1$ denote the universe of the first model and $M^i$ denote the first model and so on for $(2, ii), (3, iii), (4, iiii), (5, v) \cdots$. Similarly, let $T^i$ be the first theory. For the purposes of this question, I'll assume that the universe of a model is nonempty.

Let $M^i$ be a model of the theory associated with $(\mathbb{R}, +, \le)$. $0$ is the unique solution to the equation with one free variable $\forall w \mathop. x + w = x$.

Let $M^{ii}$ be the model associated with $(\mathbb{R}, +, 0, \le)$.

I can think of two ways to show the non-first-order definability of $1$. I'm pretty sure that these arguments work.

The first is to note that $M^2$ could be $\{0\}$, since without $1$ we are not guaranteed the existence of a positive element. $1$ is not definable because it is not definable in at least one model of $T^{ii}$, therefore it isn't first-order definable.

The second is to look at the standard model of $T^{ii}$. There is more than one way to extend it to a model of the theory associated with $(\mathbb{R}, +, 0, 1, \le)$. If we pick a non-positive element of $M^2$, then it will satisfy all the multiplication-free sentences that $1$ satisfies in the theory associated with $(\mathbb{R}, +, \cdot, 0, 1, \le)$. Since the choice of $1$ is not unique in at least one model, $1$ is not first-order definable.


The intuitive idea behind these arguments, from my perspective, is to locate specific models where there either a) are no suitable candidates for $1$ or b) is more than suitable candidate for $1$.

However, first-order-definability feels like a syntactic property and it feels like I'm using a hypothesis without stating it by looking at specific models and arguing about the reasonableness of extending them with interpretations of new function symbols.

What's the canonical way to prove this fact? Also, is there a way to prove it that's more directly syntactic?

Greg Nisbet
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    How do you intend to prove a semantic fact ("is not definable in $\mathcal{M}$" refers to $\mathcal{M}$, which is semantic) in a purely syntactic way? – Noah Schweber Aug 27 '21 at 17:11
  • This could be a serious misconception on my part. I was thinking of "definability" as syntactic in nature ... i.e. it promises the existence of a well-formed formula $\varphi$ that satisfies some specific sentence. So, for a predicate symbol $R$, $R$ is definable if and only if there exists some sentence $\varphi$ (using a fragment of the signature) such that $\forall \vec{x} \mathop. R(x_1, x_2, \cdots, x_n) \leftrightarrow \varphi(x_1, \cdots, x_n) $ is a tautology. I'm curious if there's a way to show that no such $\varphi$ exists by structurally inducting on it or similar. – Greg Nisbet Aug 27 '21 at 17:15
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    I don't really understand your description of definability, but I think you are indeed misconceiving it. Definability is always relative to a structure, and therefore always at least partly semantic; see here. – Noah Schweber Aug 27 '21 at 17:17
  • Thanks. I guess I was thinking of definability, when talking about symbols, as informally meaning "can be replaced by a definition". I think your answer is describing the notion of a definable set. Does it make sense to talk about a symbol as being "definable" or not? – Greg Nisbet Aug 27 '21 at 17:24
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    I don't see how, at least without some additional restrictions on how that new symbol should behave (which will usually wind up being semantic). I can always choose to define a new symbol in a silly way. – Noah Schweber Aug 27 '21 at 17:26
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    Just here to state the obvious, but I'm not sure if there's a "canonical" way to do things like this. That said, definitely the first idea that comes to my mind is to find an automorphism of $(\mathbb{R}, 0, +, \leq)$ that moves $1$. For instance, $x \mapsto 2x$ works. This is using the fact that every definable set is fixed (setwise) by automorphisms of your structure. This might still be unsatisfying, though, since it's also semantic in nature. – HallaSurvivor Aug 27 '21 at 17:35
  • Err wait, I didn't mean adding a new symbol to the signature of a theory, I'm talking about removing a current symbol, replacing it with a definition, and replacing occurrences of the to-be-deleted symbol in the sentences of the theory with definitions too. I think the way I'm thinking about definability is wrong/backwards. @HallaSurvivor, That makes sense ... I guess what I'm fundamentally struggling with is "how to talk about $1$" in a structure that doesn't have it. – Greg Nisbet Aug 27 '21 at 17:42
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    @GregoryNisbet Think about how to talk about $0$ in $(\mathbb{R};+)$. The structure $(\mathbb{R};+)$ doesn't have $0$ explicitly named, but it does have a formula which uniquely picks out $0$, namely $$\zeta(x)\equiv{} "x+x=x"$$ (or any of a number of others). – Noah Schweber Aug 27 '21 at 17:44
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    You write "Let $M^{ii}$ be the model associated with $(\mathbb{R}, +, 0, \le)$...note that $M^2$ could be ${0}$, since without $1$ we are not guaranteed the existence of a positive element." This is quite confusing. For one thing, it's not at all clear what you mean by "the model associated with $(\mathbb{R}, +, 0, \le)$". Maybe you mean "a model for the complete theory of $(\mathbb{R}, +, 0, \le)$"? If so, let's call this complete theory $T$. Then $T$ contains the sentence $\exists x, (0\neq x\land 0\leq x)$. So if $M^2\models T$, then $M^2$ must have a positive element. – Alex Kruckman Aug 27 '21 at 17:51
  • For the theories, I was considering subtheories of the theory of ordered rings. By the model, I meant that $M^{ii}$ is $M^i$ equipped with a definition of $0$. I think $M^{ii}$ is uniquely determined given $M^i$. I didn’t specify the theories because I thought that picking those symbols ($+$, $\cdot$, …) was sufficient to suggest the theory in question by convention. I’ll be more specific in the future. – Greg Nisbet Aug 27 '21 at 18:06
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    Ok, but looking at subtheories of the theory of ordered rings will tell you absolutely nothing about definability in $\mathbb{R}$, since the theory of ordered rings is very incomplete. If you want to understand definability in $\mathbb{R}$ in a syntactic way, you need to work with the complete theory of $\mathbb{R}$, in whatever language you're interested in (as in my answer below). – Alex Kruckman Aug 27 '21 at 18:19
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    Please don't rely on the title in your MSE question to supply important information. The body of your questions should be self-contained. As regards the mathematical content of your question, most provable mathematical statements can be proved in many different ways, so the notion of a canonical method of proof for a given statement doesn't make sense. – Rob Arthan Aug 27 '21 at 20:19
  • @RobArthan, the initial section is intended to have the complete question as well as where it comes from. I’m afraid I don’t know what information is in the title only. I didn’t mean canonical in a strict technical sense … the context where the question comes from (an easy question hypothetically given in the first two weeks of a model theory course) suggests (at least to me) that there’s one obvious way (or a small handful of ways) that people should tackle this. – Greg Nisbet Aug 27 '21 at 21:01
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    @GregoryNisbet: it takes a careful reading of the body of your question to see that it does (more or less) include the information in the title. I'd suggest you avoid using the term "canonical" if you don't know exactly what you mean. – Rob Arthan Aug 27 '21 at 21:12
  • I think I just realized my mistake ... the original passage is talking about $1$ in a particular, concrete structure (and there isn't really a way to interpret it differently) ... Yeah, my question doesn't make sense. Sorry. – Greg Nisbet Aug 27 '21 at 21:22

2 Answers2

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I don't really understand your proposed approach, so I can't comment on it.


I'm not sure it's "canonical" per se, but in my opinion the most natural way to attack a problem like this is via automorphisms.

One of the most important properties of first-order logic is its isomorphism-invariance (and indeed this is usually taken as one of the criteria for being a "logic" in the first place - in particular, everything that follows holds for second-order logic, infinitary logics, etc.):

Suppose $\mathcal{A},\mathcal{B}$ are structures in the same language and $f:\mathcal{A}\rightarrow\mathcal{B}$ is an isomorphism. Then for every formula $\varphi$ in the language of these structures and every tuple $a_1,...,a_n\in\mathcal{A}$ we have $$\mathcal{A}\models\varphi(a_1,...,a_n)\iff \mathcal{B}\models\varphi(f(a_1),...,f(a_n)).$$

We can use this to prove for example that $1$ is not a first-order definable element of the structure $\mathcal{R}=(\mathbb{R};\le,+)$ as follows. Let $f:\mathbb{R}\rightarrow\mathbb{R}:x\mapsto 2x$. This is an automorphism of the structure $\mathcal{R}$ and $f(1)=2$, so by the fact above we get in particular that for each formula $\varphi(x)$ in our language we have $\mathcal{R}\models \varphi(1)\iff\mathcal{R}\models\varphi(2)$. Consequently there is no formula in our language which holds, in $\mathcal{R}$, of exactly the element $1$. And recall that this is what it means for an element to be (un)definable:

Given a structure $\mathcal{A}=(A;...)$ and an element $a\in A$, we say $a$ is (parameter-freely-)definable in $\mathcal{A}$ iff there is some formula $\varphi(x)$ in the language of $\mathcal{A}$ such that $$\{u\in A: \mathcal{A}\models \varphi(u)\}=\{a\}.$$

Note that this is very semantic, contra your request. This is however part of the definition of the term, and it really only ever makes sense to talk about definability relative to a structure, although unfortunately we do often abuse language. See here for a summary of definability (both with and without parameters).


Now the above approach is extremely "coarse," and - unsurprisingly - doesn't always work. For example, the structure $\mathcal{N}=(\mathbb{N};<)$ has no automorphisms at all (= is rigid), and so we can't use the idea above to rule out any definability results at all, but of course only countably many subsets of $\mathbb{N}$ could possibly be definable in $\mathcal{N}$ (and if you want to think about definable elements rather than relations, consider an uncountable rigid structure like the linear order $(\omega_1;<)$).

For more subtle results we need to use more specific properties of the logic in question. For example, the set $E$ of even numbers is not first-order definable in $\mathcal{N}$ but it is second-order definable in $\mathcal{N}$, so if we want to prove the non-first-order definability of $E$ in $\mathcal{N}$ we'll need to use a fact which is more specific to first-order logic. For example, we have the notion of back-and-forth systems, a kind of "isomorphism analogue" for which first-order logic (but not second-order logic!) satisfies an appropriate invariance principle; these are often presented game-theoretically (as Ehrenfeucht-Fraisse games), and I've written a number of arguments here on MSE using this presentation.


The semantic nature of definability notwithstanding, there is a "definability-flavored" question which is purely syntactic. Suppose I have a theory $T$. I can ask whether there is a formula in the language of $T$ which $T$-provably has some property. For example:

Is there a formula $\varphi(x,y,z)$ such that $$\mathsf{Pres}\vdash(\forall x,y\exists !z[\varphi(x,y,z)])\wedge(\forall x,y,x',y',z[\varphi(x,y,z)\wedge\varphi(x',y',z)\rightarrow x=x'\wedge y=y']),$$ where $\mathsf{Pres}$ is Presburger arithmetic?

This essentially asks whether Presburger arithmetic can implement a pairing operation. In case you're curious, the answer is negative (and despite being a syntactic question there's a semantic argument for this!).

We could also make allowances for incompleteness in our theory by permitting some casework (I'll talk about unary relations specifically for simplicity). Given a theory $T$ in a language $\Sigma$ and a sentence $\psi$ in the language $\Sigma\sqcup\{U\}$ for some fresh unary relation symbol $U$, say that $T$ almost defines a $\psi$-solution iff there is a finite sequence $\theta_1(x),...,\theta_n(x)$ of $\Sigma$-formulas such that $$T\vdash\bigvee_{1\le i\le n}\forall x(\psi[\theta_i/U]),$$ where $\psi[\theta_i/U]$ is the $\Sigma$-formula gotten by replacing "$U$" with "$\theta_i$" throughout $\psi$. This turns out to be equivalent to every model of $T$ having a parameter-freely-definable set satisfying $\psi$ in the obvious sense (this uses compactness).

Noah Schweber
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In addition to the automorphisms and EF-games that Noah discussed in his answer, another (more syntactic) way to prove non-definability is by understanding all the formulas up to logical equivalence, relative to the complete theory of the structure in question.

Let $T = \mathrm{Th}(\mathbb{R},0,+,-,\leq)$. Note that I'm including $-$ in the language. Sometimes adding definable symbols to the language is necessary to get quantifier elimination. If we want to show that something is not definable, we're free to add more symbols to the language: if it's not definable in the expanded structure, it won't be definable in the reduct. And in this case, $-$ is actually definable in $(\mathbb{R},0,+,\leq)$, by the formula $x+y = 0$, so adding $-$ to the language doesn't even allow us to define any new sets.

Now the theory $\mathsf{ODAG}$ of ordered divisible abelian groups, in the language $\{0,+,-,\leq\}$, is complete and has quantifier elimination [see Corollary 3.1.17 in Marker's Model Theory: An Introduction, for example].

Since $(\mathbb{R},0,+,-,\leq)$ is an ordered divisible abelian group, $T = \mathsf{ODAG}$. So every formula is equivalent, in every model of $T$, to a quantifier-free formula.

What are the possible quantifier-free formulas in one free variable $x$? Every term in $x$ is equivalent to one of the form $nx$, for $n\in \mathbb{Z}$ (where $0x$ is $0$ and for $n>0$, $nx$ is $x+\dots +x$ ($n$ times) and $(-n)x$ is $-(x+\dots +x)$ ($n$ times)). So every atomic formula in $x$ is equivalent to one of the form $nx = mx$ or $nx \leq mx$ for $n,m\in \mathbb{Z}$. Subtracting $mx$ from both sides, every atomic formula in $x$ is equivalent to $kx = 0$ or $kx \leq 0$ for some $k\in \mathbb{Z}$. The first formula defines $\{0\}$ in $\mathbb{R}$, and the second formula defines $\{x\mid x\leq 0\}$ in $\mathbb{R}$. So any Boolean combination of atomic formulas in $x$ defines some union of the sets $\{x\mid x < 0\}$, $\{0\}$, and $\{x\mid 0 < x\}$. This shows that there are only $8$ formulas in one free variable up to logical equivalence modulo $T$. And only one of these $8$ defines a singleton.

Alex Kruckman
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