0

How do we do geometry with real numbers? For example prove the area of a rectangle is $a\cdot b$ if it has irrational lengths?

When we define the integral (with Darboux sums) we use that the area of a rectangle with "real lengths" is $a\cdot b$, but I haven't seen any explanation for it in any book.

Do irrational lengths exist? Since Dedekind cuts have no relation to geometry and are just an enriched set of the rationals. We know one exists the hypotenuse $\sqrt{2}$, what about others?

I am confused about defining real numbers as Dedekind cuts and the geometric aspect of an "arbitrary length"

What about the Cantor-Dedekind axiom? Shouldn't that be proven some way?

  • 1
    Irrational lengths exist. COnsider the hypotenuse of a right triangle whose sides have length one. Th hypotenuse has length $\sqrt(2)$ – Anna Naden Aug 31 '20 at 18:49

1 Answers1

3

In synthetic geometry, we simply have an assumption (axiom) that the area of a rectangle with sides $a,b$ is $a·b$. What are lengths in synthetic geometry? It is not specified, except that they form an archimedean field plus closure under geometric construction. If only compass and straightedge constructions are permitted, then the constructible lengths are generated by quadratic extensions on $\mathbb{Q}$. If conics are permitted too, then the constructible lengths are generated by quadratic or cubic extensions on $\mathbb{Q}$. (Even one conic is enough to perform cube-roots.)

In general, synthetic geometry never ever involves lengths beyond algebraic reals. This should not be surprising, because the algebraic reals form a real closed field, which means that it satisfies the same first-order sentences (in the language of ordered fields) as the real numbers. So one can do synthetic geometry using an axiomatization where all lengths form a real closed field (i.e. they are axiomatized to form an ordered field closed under adding roots of nonzero polynomials), and our results will hold whether or not geometric lengths are reals or just algebraic reals.

In modern mathematics, it turns out that we can show the existence of not only a real closed field, but in fact a model of the axiomatization of the real numbers. So we can in fact define Euclidean geometry in terms of Euclidean space $\mathbb{R}^n$, where $n$ is usually $2$ or $3$. The Cantor-Dedekind axiom is a misleading notion; such definition of Euclidean geometry is not an assumption in any sense. The advantage of working with Euclidean geometry is that we can apply tools of real analysis (such as the intermediate-value theorem and differentiation) to solve geometry problems. The disadvantage is that such tools rely on real analysis and so may not apply to synthetic geometry in general.

Anyway, the Riemann/Darboux integral is not defined in terms of any sort of geometric notions! It is simply defined the way it is, and then we can use the integral to define area of regions bounded by curves, and then prove nice properties about that notion of area, such as the area of a rectangle, monotonicity and finite additivity, which any reasonable notion of area ought to have. Indeed, this notion of area is equivalent to Jordan measure. Note that in this approach of defining area we do not define the integral in terms of the area of rectangles! So there is no unproven assumption. By the way, take note that Jordan measure is not countably additive, unlike Lebesgue measure.

user21820
  • 57,693
  • 9
  • 98
  • 256
  • I didn't completely get your answer, still a novice in mathematics. I will reread. Can you point to any books about this? – SotirisD Sep 01 '20 at 07:05
  • @Sion: What is your mathematical background? Have you learnt real analysis, and are you familiar with proving theorems in basic synthetic geometry (e.g. Menelaus', Ceva's, 9-point circle, Desargue's, Pappus, Pascal's, radical-axis, inversion, ...)? – user21820 Sep 01 '20 at 12:04
  • I am not familiar with synthetic geometry, only what I did in school which I have forgotten.I have read spivak's calculus, some of rudin's analysis, linear algebra,differential equations, multivariable calculus (probably irrelevant). – SotirisD Sep 01 '20 at 12:16
  • I haven't understood still how do you form a connection with real numbers(as dedekind cuts or cauchy) and geometry and what direction I should look, no info online. – SotirisD Sep 01 '20 at 12:21
  • @Sion: Ah okay then you can understand euclidean geometry as being building from the reals (that's why it's called "euclidean" since it is about $\mathbb{R}^n$ where $n$ is usually $2$ or $3$). Literally, you define points and lines and planes based on euclidean space, and you can prove various theorems about them. In particular, clearly each line has a vector equation $a+k·b$ where $k$ is a real parameter and $a,b$ are vectors with $b$ nonzero, and each point on that line corresponds to a unique $k$. – user21820 Sep 01 '20 at 12:22
  • @Sion: I expanded my answer somewhat, with more links to related concepts, based on your mathematical background. Let me know if you want to know more about something. – user21820 Sep 01 '20 at 13:14
  • Can you give more details on your last comment? How do you build euclidean geometry from the reals? – SotirisD Sep 10 '20 at 18:12
  • @Sion: Is the paragraph about that in my expanded answer not sufficient? A point is a vector in $ℝ^3$, a line/plane/circle/sphere is a set of points satisfying some equation[s]. Then use the entire foundational system you do mathematics in, to reason about these sets of points. In particular, you can prove appropriate versions of the axioms for euclidean geometry for these objects in $ℝ^3$, such as that any two lines in a plane are either parallel or intersect, and the triangle inequality, and so on. – user21820 Sep 10 '20 at 19:25