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Prove that for each $m \in \Bbb N$, there exists a unique $ f_m: \Bbb N \rightarrow \Bbb N$, such that $f_m(0)=m$ and $\forall n \in \Bbb N, f_m(S(n))=S(f_m(n))$. Where $S(n)$ denotes the successor of $n$, namely: $S(n)=n \cup \{n\}$.

The proof follows from application of the recursion theorem, however, I am trying to see if I could prove it from the Axioms directly. I am new to the subject of ZFC, so please bear with me.

By Axiom of Choice, considering the indexed family of sets $\{\Bbb N\}_{i \in \Bbb N}$ as follows: $$\prod\{\Bbb N\}_{i \in \Bbb N} \neq \emptyset=\{f:\Bbb N \rightarrow \Bbb N\}$$ Hence the set of all possible functions $f:\Bbb N \rightarrow \Bbb N$ exists and is nonempty.

By Axiom of Union, the following set exists: $$\bigcup \prod \{\Bbb N\}_{i \in \Bbb N}=\{z:\exists f \in \prod \{\Bbb N\}_{i \in \Bbb N} \;z \in f \}$$ which is the set of all possible ordered pairs.

By Axiom of Seperation, the following set exists: $$f_m= \biggr\{z \in \bigcup \prod \{\Bbb N\}_{i \in \Bbb N}: (x(z)=0 \implies y(z)=m)\; \land \;\biggr(\forall n \in \Bbb N \;\;\; y(S(x(z)))=S(y(x(z)))\biggr) \biggr\}$$ The variable used in the quantifier $z$ is an ordered pair, where $x(z)$ and $y(z)$ denote the $x$ and $y$ components respectively. To the right of the colon, we have a formula that selects all the ordered pairs satisfying the criterion in the question. Hence, we have demonstrated that such $f_m$ exists.

Is this method valid? I am really unsure: when we invoke the Axiom of Choice, we simply state that the Generalised Cartesian Product or simply the set of all functions $f:\Bbb N \rightarrow \Bbb N$ is nonempty, but we don't say anything about whether or not the given $f_m$ is a possible element of the product. So then we might end up with $f_m$ being the empty set when we apply the Axiom Schema of Separation.

I also have an additional concern, if you look at the criterion used when applying the Axiom of Separation, we check for $y(S(x(z)))$, which we wouldn't know unless we knew the successive ordered pair. This sounds problematic, however I've never seen a similar scenario where we consider the successive element, the existence of which is yet to be determined, as part of the formula.

  • You don’t need AC to prove the product exists and is nonempty. It’s irrelevant to existence and there is a one-line proof it is nonempty that doesn’t use choice. – spaceisdarkgreen Aug 04 '20 at 05:23
  • Could you send me any links of proofs that we don't need AC to prove that the product exists and is nonempty? AC is convenient in this case, though admittedly not necessary. – Joeseph123 Aug 04 '20 at 05:34
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    It's nonempty since, e.g. the constant function $n\mapsto 0$ is in it. As for existence, (some phrasings of) AC might be predicated on the existence of indexed cartesian products, but it's wrong to think of AC as the axiom that asserts they exist. Rather, AC is just the part that says they're nonempty provided the factors are (and note per my first sentence that it will never be necessary if the factors are the same, or even if they all have a common element). You can prove existence with power set and separation. – spaceisdarkgreen Aug 04 '20 at 06:00
  • The way you've arrived to $\Bbb{N\times N}$ is so convoluted, it might as well be circular. – Asaf Karagila Aug 04 '20 at 10:04
  • I am not looking for $\Bbb N \times \Bbb N$, I am looking for the set of $f: \Bbb N \rightarrow \Bbb N$. – Joeseph123 Aug 04 '20 at 22:37
  • No, you are looking for "the set of all possible ordered pairs"... i.e. $\mathbb N\times\mathbb N.$ You use $\mathbb N^{\mathbb N}$ to get there via the union. As Asaf indicates, this is a convoluted route, and 'might as well be circular' since the way to prove $\mathbb N^{\mathbb N}$ exists is to use separation bounded by $P(\mathbb N\times\mathbb N)$ (not by using choice). So what you really want (i.e. $\mathbb N\times \mathbb N)$ comes first logically, anyway. – spaceisdarkgreen Aug 04 '20 at 23:11
  • Actually, you are incorrect, when considering $\Bbb N ^{\Bbb N}$ we consider an infinitely long Cartesian Product, which requires AC. The existence of the Cartesian Product of only finitely many multiplicands could be proven within ZF. – Joeseph123 Aug 05 '20 at 11:54
  • @Joeseph123 No, I'm not. (Also you have to address me with @ if you want me to get pinged... I'm only seeing these since I left the tab open.) 1) AC is not required to show $A^I$ is nonempty for any nonempty $A, I$, infinite or otherwise... any constant function $I\to A$ witnesses. 2) AC is not required to show $\prod_{i\in I}A_i$ is nonempty when the $A_i$ are well-ordered , since we can let $f(i)$ be the least element of the well-ordering of $A_i$ (but note well-orderable doesn't suffice). Both of these are the case here. – spaceisdarkgreen Aug 05 '20 at 16:14
  • @Joeseph123 And I didn't see that you were claiming it was necessary for existence (as opposed to nonemptiness), Again, while it's needed to show nonemptiness in some cases, it is completely irrelevant to existence. $\prod_{i\in I} A_i$ is a definable subset of $P(I\times \bigcup_{i\in I} A_i).$ – spaceisdarkgreen Aug 05 '20 at 16:32
  • @spaceisdarkgreen Isn’t it problematic to take the Union of infinitely many sets? How is the Union operation defined for infinitely many sets, from what I’ve heard this is a no no without defining AC or Axiom of Infinity (but how do we phrase the problem of whether $\Bbb N^ \Bbb N$ exists or not formally within the context of an inductive set?) I was most probably wrong as you say though. – Joeseph123 Aug 06 '20 at 19:44
  • @Joeseph123 If you don't have infinity, you can't prove any infinite sets exist anyway. The axiom of union says for any set $X$, $\cup X,$ the union of all the sets in $X$ exists, so if $X$ is infinite, that takes care of it already. $\bigcup_{i\in I} A_i = \bigcup{A_i:i\in I}.$ To show ${A_i:i\in I}$ exists requires replacement in general, though not if there's already some set all the $A_i$ belong to. – spaceisdarkgreen Aug 06 '20 at 21:01
  • @Joeseph123 For $\mathbb N^{\mathbb N}$ you define $\mathbb N$ as the set of all elements of a given inductive set that are in every inductive set (and some inductive set exists via infinity). Then you can get $\mathbb N\times \mathbb N$ as the set of all elements of $P(P(\mathbb N))$ that are ordered pairs of elements of $\mathbb N$ (you can also get this from replacement). Then $\mathbb N^{\mathbb N}$ is the set of all elements of $P(\mathbb N\times \mathbb N)$ that are total functions. – spaceisdarkgreen Aug 06 '20 at 21:16

2 Answers2

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First off - this isn't a correctness issue, but doesn't this seem like a roundabout way to construct the set of ordered pairs? Why not just use the Cartesian product on the indexed family $\{\mathbb{N}\}_{i \in 2}$? This is related to one of your concerns - you're worried that $f_m$ might not be a member of that set of all functions, but notice that you discarded that set immediately. You're not drawing $f_m$ out as an element of that set, you're extracting it as a subset of the set of ordered pairs.

Unrelatedly: Your concern is essentially correct, though. Separation guarantees that the thing you're calling $f_m$ exists, but does not guarantee any of the following:

  • $f_m$ is nonempty.
  • $f_m$ is total (i.e., is defined on all of $\mathbb{N}$).
  • $f_m$ is in fact a function.

You should prove each of these separately (although the first two can be bundled together). In other words, given an $a$, show that there's at least one pair $(a,b)$ meeting the described condition; then show that no other pair will work.

  • I wouldn't use ${\mathbb{N}}_{i \in 2}$ as this gives an additional index spanning over $i \in 2$. This would give each ordered pair $(x, y)$ as ${(0, x), (1, y)}$ which is inconvenient. It is a long derivation for a simple construction, however I am trying to use a purely axiomatic approach. How should I proceed with proving the properties you mentioned of $f_m$? Induction, or otherwise? – Joeseph123 Aug 04 '20 at 02:33
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If you've defined ordinal addition, you can note that you can take $f_m(x) = m + x$. Uniqueness follows pretty easily by induction.

Your "proof" is flawed, incomplete, and convoluted. Here's a cleaner way to prove this.

General case: suppose we have $m \in B$ and $g : B \to B$. Then there is a unique $f : \mathbb{N} \to B$ such that $f(0) = m$ and for all $n \in \mathbb{N}$, $f(S(n)) = g(f(n))$.

Proof:

We say $f$ is a "good function" if

(1) $f$ is a function $D \to B$ where $D \subseteq \mathbb{N}$

(2) If $0 \in D$ then $f(0) = 0$.

(3) For every $n \in \mathbb{N}$, if $S(n) \in D$ then $n \in D$ and $f(S(n)) = g(f(n))$.

Claim: for every $n \in \mathbb{N}$, there is a unique $b \in B$ such that there's some good $f$ where $f(n) = b$ (and of course $f(n)$ is defined).

Proof: induction.

Base case: We can clearly define $f : \{0\} \to B$ by $f(0) = m$; this proves existence. Uniqueness follows from the fact that whenever $f(0)$ is defined, it must equal $m$ by the definition of a "good function."

Inductive step: let $w \in B$ be the unique such value corresponding to $n$, and let $f$ be a "good function" such that $f(n) = w$. Define $h = f \cup \{S(n), g(w)\}$. We see that $h$ is a good partial function, that $h(S(n))$ is defined, and that $h(S(n)) = g(h(n))$; existence is thus proved. Note that in some texts, a function $f$ is given as the ordered pair $(R, B)$ where $R \subseteq D \times B$; in this case, a minor change would be needed but nothing serious. And of course, for any good function $h$ such that $h(S(n))$ is defined, we would have $h(S(n)) = g(h(n)) = g(w)$; uniqueness is also thereby proved.

Then we can define a function $f : \mathbb{N} \to B$ by $f(n) = $ the unique $b \in B$ such that there is a good $h$ where $h(n)$ is defined and $h(n) = b$. We see that it must be the case that $f(0) = m$ and that for all $n \in \mathbb{N}$, $f(S(n)) = g(f(n))$. Thus, the existence of the $f$ follows.

Finally, suppose that there is some other $h : \mathbb{N} \to B$ such that $g(0) = 0$ and for all $n$, $h(S(n)) = g(h(n))$. Then $h$ is a good function; then for every $n$, $h(n) = f(n)$; then $h = f$. Thus, uniqueness of the $f$ follows.

Clearly, your problem is just a special case of this.

Edit: going into more detail on the reasons why the questioner's attempted proof fails.

Firstly, you almost certainly don't need to demonstrate that $\mathbb{N} \to \mathbb{N}$ and $\mathbb{N}^2$ are sets, and the way you've done so is very roundabout and probably circular. Surely your textbook would have gone over more general versions of these facts first. I recommend you look over the proofs that such sets of functions and Cartesian products are well-defined. The axiom of choice has nothing to do with either.

Secondly, your construction

$$f_m= \biggr\{z \in \bigcup \prod \{\Bbb N\}_{i \in \Bbb N}: (x(z)=0 \implies y(z)=m)\; \land \;\biggr(\forall n \in \Bbb N \;\;\; y(S(x(z)))=S(y(x(z)))\biggr) \biggr\}$$

makes little sense. Let us rewrite it in more standard notation as

$$f_m= \biggr\{(a, b) \in \mathbb{N}^2 : (a=0 \implies b=m)\; \land \;\biggr(\forall n \in \Bbb N \;\;\; y(S(a))=S(y(a))\biggr) \biggr\}$$

Hopefully it is clear now that since your construction involves taking the components of the natural number $a$ as if it were an ordered pair shows that the construction doesn't make much sense.

Doctor Who
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  • Could you point out where my attempted proof is incorrect? I appreciate your work, but I am looking for fallacies in my argument, not an answer to the exercise. – Joeseph123 Aug 04 '20 at 05:31
  • @Joeseph123 I have edited the post to answer your question. – Doctor Who Aug 04 '20 at 07:17