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Since I couldn't find no similar question already asked here, I launch this question (I'm sorry if what I'm going to ask has been already posted. I would like to know if so in order to delete this post).

My question is regarding the well-known characterization of the closure of a set in metric spaces,

Let $(X,d)$ be a metric space and $A\subset X$. The following are equivalent:

  1. $a\in \overline{A}$.
  2. There exists a sequence $\{a_n\}\subset A$ converging to $a$.

(such result I think is the same as saying that closedness is equivalent to sequential closedness in metric spaces).

Now, what I'm concerned about is the relation that this result has with the Axiom of Choice. Specifically, I'm concerned about its proof and the usage of the Axiom of Countable Choice.

The proof that I know for 1. $\Rightarrow$ 2. goes as following,

Let $a\in \overline{A}$. Then $B(a,\frac{1}{n})\cap A\neq \varnothing$ for every $n\in \mathbb{N}$ (where $B(x,r)$ is the open ball of center $x\in X$ and radius $r>0$ for the metric $d$). Now, for each $n\in \mathbb{N}$, pick some $a_n \in B(a,\frac{1}{n})\cap A$. It is now easy to show that $\{a_n\}\subset A$ converges to $a$.

I don't know about foundations nor set theory, but I think that what is being used in the choice of the $a_n$ is the Axiom of Countable Choice (on the other hand, the 2. $\Rightarrow$ 1. part present no problematic whatsoever regarding AC and it is a general result valid for arbitrary topological spaces).

My questions are:

  • Can 1. $\Rightarrow$ 2. be proven without ACC?
  • If not, could it even be that such statement is equivalent to ACC? (1. $\Rightarrow$ 2.) $\iff$ ACC.

Any kind of help will be appreciated.

  • This statement is equivalent to the axiom of countable choice – Alessandro Codenotti Feb 22 '20 at 13:41
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    This is a duplicate. – Asaf Karagila Feb 22 '20 at 13:47
  • @AsafKaragila what is the duplicate ? Don't you have duplicate-assigning powers? – Henno Brandsma Feb 22 '20 at 14:04
  • @Henno: I do, just not always the time. – Asaf Karagila Feb 22 '20 at 14:17
  • @AsafKaragila Instead of starting a possibly duplicate new question, I want to ask here about this related question: I have seen that the proof of "Every subspace of a separable metric space is again separable" which relies on $AC_\omega$. Can this be proven without $AC_\omega$? Or is this general topology result also equivalent to $AC_\omega$?

    Please, let me know the link to the question if this has been already answered here.

    – Elías Guisado Villalgordo Feb 22 '20 at 16:37
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    Start with https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/309313/second-countable-implies-separable-axiom-countable-choice and follow the links on the side menu, as well as the references everywhere. – Asaf Karagila Feb 22 '20 at 16:41

1 Answers1

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In the book "Consequences of the Axiom of Choice" (Howard and Rubin) they mention a lot of different forms of AC. [8] is the ACC (any countable family of non-empty sets has a choice function) and [73] is:

for $A \subseteq \Bbb R$ it is equivalent that $x \in \overline{A}$ and "$\exists (x_n)_n \text{ in } A: x_n \to x$".

Then they reference Sierpinski (1918) for [8] implies [73] at the end, which seems obvious enough, using the countable family $\{B(x,\frac{1}{n})\cap A\mid n \in \Bbb N\}$.

In the models section, page 218, they mention a model of ZF (De la Cruz/Di Prisco model) in which 73 holds, but 8 is false. This doesn't yet rule out the general metric case, which I could not find as a separate form of AC. Asaf might know.

Henno Brandsma
  • 242,131
  • Funny (seeing the duplicate) that the reals form is strictly weaker. Sorta makes sense though. Weird that H&R don't include the general form as the paper by Herrlich et al is older then their book.. – Henno Brandsma Feb 22 '20 at 14:50
  • The equivalence of topological closure and sequential closure in $\mathbb R$ with the countable axiom of choice for sets of real numbers (presumably weaker than countable choice for arbitrary sets, but I don't know), and that countable choice for sets of real numbers implies this also for ${\mathbb R}^n,$ appears to be proved in Section 4 (pp. 119-126) of Sierpiński’s paper L'axiome de M. Zermelo et son rôle dans la théorie des ensembles et l'analyse (continued) – Dave L. Renfro Feb 22 '20 at 15:02
  • [The axiom of Mr. Zermelo and its role in the theory of sets and analysis], Bulletin International de l'Académie des Sciences de Cracovie. Classe des Sciences Mathématiques et Naturelles. Série A: Sciences Mathématiques (1918), 97-152. I don’t know what modifications might need to be made for an arbitrary metric space in place of ${\mathbb R}.$ – Dave L. Renfro Feb 22 '20 at 15:03
  • @Dave: Of course it's much weaker. You can have the reals well-orderable (so, full choice for all sets of reals), but countable choice fails in the most horrible ways imaginable. – Asaf Karagila Feb 22 '20 at 16:25
  • @AsafKaragila the full statement probably allows one to create a metric space and set, tailored to some instance of countable choice one wants to fulfill, so that a sequence existing in $A$ gives a choice function, say. – Henno Brandsma Feb 22 '20 at 16:30
  • @Henno: Yes, that is the essence of the proof of Herrlich and Strepans. – Asaf Karagila Feb 22 '20 at 16:31
  • @AsafKaragila Do you know if Howard and Rubin put their database online? With the book I have a floppy disk (!) with software to look for (counter)models satisfying all of the more than a 100 versions of choice in their book. IMO that would make a great resource as a website with query options, like $\pi$-base for counterexamples in topology, e.g. It could then be updated with new equivalences and versions etc. I did manage to find this but I get only errors.. – Henno Brandsma Feb 22 '20 at 16:35
  • @Henno: I do not know. Ioanna Dimitriou wrote a new graphing software, and perhaps the database was updated in the process to include this. https://github.com/ioannad/jeffrey – Asaf Karagila Feb 22 '20 at 16:43
  • Looking at the source, it seems to be mentioned as 8AH. – Asaf Karagila Feb 22 '20 at 16:45
  • @AsafKaragila It doesn't seem to be queryable online. And 8AH was not yet in the book (but it's older than I realised, 1991, and Herrlich and Steprans' paper is later) – Henno Brandsma Feb 22 '20 at 17:17
  • https://cgraph.inters.co/ but that might not be what you had in mind. https://github.com/ioannad/jeffrey/blob/master/Howard-Rubin-data/FORMSNUM.TEX + "Ctrl-F" works quite well for that. – Asaf Karagila Feb 22 '20 at 17:19