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Need help in vetting my answers for questions in sec 2.5 in chap. 2 (page 8) in CRM series book by MAA: Exploratory Examples for Real Analysis, By Joanne E. Snow, Kirk E. Weller. here The question refers also to "new definition" introduced in Q. 2.3 (in answer for part $4$) in my last post, that am repeating below for ease of reference:

Let there be a nonempty set $X$ with supremum $s$, then $X\cap(s - \epsilon, s]\ne \emptyset, \,\, \forall \epsilon\gt 0$.

Q. 2.5:

  1. If $X$ is a nonempty set for which the supremum exists, that is, $sup(X)=s$, what is the minimal number of elements of $X$, if any, that must lie in $(s-\epsilon, s]$ for every choice of $\epsilon\gt 0$. Carefully, explain your response. Is your response consistent with the definition you wrote in Section 2.3?

Not sure what the question is asking as for reals cannot count elements in any interval. However, my answer is : Minimal number of elements of $X$ in the interval $(s-\epsilon, s]$ is $= (s-\epsilon, s]$, if $s\in X$, else $(s-\epsilon, s)$ if $s\notin X$.

  1. Use the "new" definition to prove that
    $$\sup(\{(1- \frac1{3^n})\,\,: n \in N \})= 1.$$

$s=1$, for $n\rightarrow \infty$. Below is table for set members for few values of $n$: $$\begin{array}{c|c|} & \text{$n\in \mathbb{N}$}& \text{$(1- \frac1{3^n})$}\\ \hline a & 1& \frac23=0.\overline{6}\\ \hline b & 2& \frac89=0.\overline{8}\\ \hline c & 3& \frac{26}{27}=0.\overline{962}\\ \hline d & 4& \frac{80}{81}=0.\overline{987654320}\\ \hline \vdots\\ \hline \infty & n\rightarrow \infty& \approx 1\\ \hline \end{array}$$ $s\not\in \{(1- \frac1{3^n}\,\,: n \in N \})$, as $s$ does not lie in the set.

$(1- \frac1{3^n}) \in [\frac23, 1)$.

$\epsilon \in\mathbb{R}, \epsilon\gt 0\implies \forall \epsilon \gt 0: n\lt \infty$, as $s - \epsilon \lt 1$.

For interval $(s-\epsilon,s]$, the lower bound implies for $\epsilon\gt 0$ that $ s-\epsilon \lt 1\implies n \lt \infty$, & the upper bound implies the max. value is $s=1$ at $n= \infty$. All possible values of $n$ are covered in the interval $(s-\epsilon,s]$ with $n=\infty$ at the upper bound.

  1. Identify the supremum of the set given below, & use the "new" definition of supremum to prove your claim: $$\{(-\frac12)^n\,\,: n \in N \}$$

$$\sup(\{(-\frac12)^n\,\,: n \in N \})= 1.$$

$s=\frac14$, for $n=2$. Below is table for set members for few values of $n$: $$\begin{array}{c|c|} & \text{$n\in \mathbb{N}$}& \text{$(-\frac12)^n$}\\ \hline a & 1& -\frac12=-0.5\\ \hline b & 2& \frac14=0.25\\ \hline c & 3& -\frac 18=-0.125\\ \hline d & 4& \frac{1}{16}=0.0625\\ \hline \vdots\\ \hline \infty & n\rightarrow \infty& \approx 0\\ \hline \end{array}$$

As $-(\frac12)^n\in \{-\frac12, \cdots, \frac14\}$, & as $n \rightarrow \infty, -(\frac12)^n \approx 0$.
For interval $(s-\epsilon,s]$, the lower bound implies for $\epsilon\gt 0$ that $ s-\epsilon \lt \frac14$, & the upper bound implies the max. value is $s=\frac14$. All possible values of $n$ are covered in the interval $(s-\epsilon,s]$ with $n=2$ at the upper bound.

  1. In considering the "new" definition of supremum, state a condition, or set of conditions, by which a set would fail to have a supremum? In other words, what is the negation of the definition that you came up with in Section 2.3?

The "new" definition is based on premises: a nonempty set $X$, a positive real number $\epsilon$, & the half-open interval $(s−\epsilon,s]$, where $s$ denotes the supremum.

Out of this only the first premise can be negated, as then the two further assumptions of : (i) positive real non-negative $\epsilon$ does not hold, (ii) similarly, the assumption of having interval of values: $(s-\epsilon, s]$ cannot hold.

Hence, the negation of "new" definition is:
"new definition": Let there be a nonempty set $X$ with supremum $s$, then $X\cap(s - \epsilon, s]\ne \emptyset, \,\, \forall \epsilon\gt 0$.

"negation": $\forall X =\emptyset$, supremum $=-\infty$, & there is no possible $\epsilon\gt 0$.

  1. If $s$ is the supremum of a nonempty set $X$ of real numbers, under what condition(s) do we find an infinite number of elements of $X$ in the interval $(s-\epsilon, s]$ for every choice of $\epsilon\gt 0$. Justify your reasoning.

The members of set $X$ lie in reals, so for infinite number of elements $\forall \epsilon \gt 0$, need $s = \infty$. Then the interval $(s - \epsilon, s]$ for any positive value of $\epsilon$ is having infinite number of values.

  1. If $X$ is the empty set, does the supremum of $X$ exist? Explain your answer.

supremum $\ge$ larger than any value in the set, & is the $lub$. For an empty set, any value can act as upper bound, & supremum is the least of any possible value. so $s=-\infty$.

jiten
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    Concentrate on the set $X$, not on the intervals $(s-\epsilon,s]$. Those intervals always have infinitely many elements when $\epsilon>0$. The set $X$ on the other hand... – Jyrki Lahtonen May 09 '19 at 05:21
  • @JyrkiLahtonen Kindly elaborate more when you differentiate between a set $X$ & a given range interval for the set based on $s$. If possible, please put these suggestions as an answer. – jiten May 09 '19 at 05:23
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    Hmm. Consider the set $X={0,1}.$ It has a supremum $s$, right? What is it? What can you say about the number of elements of $X$ in the interval $(s-\epsilon,s]$ for various choices of $\epsilon>0$? – Jyrki Lahtonen May 09 '19 at 05:26
  • The questions somewhat revolve around the following theme. The sets $$X_1={0,1},$$ $$X_2={1-\frac1{3^n}\mid n\in\Bbb{Z},n>0},$$ both share $s=1$ as their supremum. You are to think about the how they differ in terms of cardinalities of the intersections $X_i\cap(s-\epsilon,s]$, $i=1,2,\epsilon>0$ for various choices of $\epsilon$. The early parts clearly are about this. Part 5 is a bit trickier, and I only give a hint: when are the suprema of $X$ and $X\setminus{s}$ the same? When are they different? Gotta commute next, sorry. – Jyrki Lahtonen May 09 '19 at 05:37
  • @JyrkiLahtonen Yes, the number of elements in real domain in $(s -\epsilon,s]$ is not measurable So, you suggest by 'taking sets' is to take a non-continuous set (whose range / members can be counted). Regarding Q. 5, you have chosen plural of the term supremum (suprema) meaning multiple supremum? Also, have difficulty in understanding question, as when $s$ is removed from the set $X$, $X-s $ is same as $X$ when $s\notin X$. Regarding Q.2, where is the set $X_1={0,1}$ derived from, as the domain or range of the set is not given by it – jiten May 09 '19 at 05:54
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    For the purposes of Q2.5. you are free to select the set $X$ in any way that exhibits the possible behaviors. I simply picked $X={0,1}$. As it has a supremum, it can be used as an example. There is nothing to "derive" here. – Jyrki Lahtonen May 09 '19 at 07:52
  • @JyrkiLahtonen Thanks a lot. Although there is no response for my first doubt in my last comment. I want to provide inputs asked by you: $X = {0,1}$ has $s=1$. For various values of ϵ $\in (0,\infty)$, have # elements = $1$.--- Please explain my doubts regarding Q. 5 as raised in my last comment. – jiten May 09 '19 at 08:59
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    What I was getting at is that my answer to Q.5 would read: For every $\epsilon>0$ there are infinitely many elements of $X$ in the interval $(s-\epsilon,s]$ if and only if $\sup X=s=\sup(X\setminus{s}$. For example, when $X={0,1}$ there are only finitely many elements of $X$ in the said interval for any $\epsilon$. On the other hand, for $X=(0,1)$ there will be infinitely many. Note: the example is only about the statement of my answer to Q.5. Justification is longer (and might be worth a separate question). – Jyrki Lahtonen May 09 '19 at 09:09
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    Anyway, you are right. When $s\notin X$, we have $X=X\setminus{s}$. Implying that $\sup X=\sup (X\setminus{s})$. So one direction is to show that when $s=\sup X$ and $s\notin X$, then there will always be infinitely many elements in $X\cap (s-\epsilon,s]$. – Jyrki Lahtonen May 09 '19 at 09:12

1 Answers1

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  1. Answer is $1$. Suppose for some $\epsilon>0$, $X \cap (s-\epsilon, s]=\emptyset$, then this will contradict that $s$ is a supremum. Let $X=\{0\}$, and $s=0$, then we can easily see that the answer is $1$.

  2. You want to show two thing, $1$ is an upper bound and also $\forall \epsilon > 0, (1-\epsilon, 1] \neq \emptyset$. To show the first point, since $\frac1{3^n}>0$, $1-\frac1{3^n} < 1$, hence $1$ is an upper bound. Also, clearly, we have $1 \in (1-\epsilon, 1], \forall \epsilon >0$.

  3. The odd terms are negative, the even terms are positive. Hence we can focus on the even terms. Also the even subsequence forms a decreasing subsequence. Hence $\frac1{2^2}=\frac14$ is an upperbound. Since $\frac14$ is in the set. It is the supremum.

  4. The new definition of supremum is: Given a non-empty set $X$, $s$ is a supremum of $X$ if $s$ is an upperbound of $X$ and $\forall \epsilon >0, (s-\epsilon, s] \cap X \neq \emptyset$. A non-empty set $X$ doesn't have a supremum if the set has no upper bound or $\exists \epsilon >0, (s-\epsilon, s] \cap X = \emptyset$.

  5. A sufficient condition to ensure that there are infinitely elements of $X$ in $(s-\epsilon, s] \cap X$ is when $s \notin X$. For any $\epsilon >0$, We can construct a sequence of distinct elements by first drawing the first element, $x_1$ from $(s-\epsilon, s]$, since $s \notin X$, $x_1 < s$, afterwhich, we pick $x_2 \in (x_1, s]$, and so on.

  6. Your book did not define supremum for emtpy set.

Siong Thye Goh
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  • I disagree with answer for 4, as do not know of a set where there is no upper bound; as for me $\infty$ is a possible upper bound & hence can be supremum. I saw at :https://math.stackexchange.com/a/1425792/424260, that : If you consider the real numbers as a subset of itself, there is no supremum. However, do not know its meaning at all, or how to derive this result. – jiten May 09 '19 at 16:08
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    when we disagree with each other, we check the definition. Check in your book, does supremum have to be a real number? is $\infty$ a real number? – Siong Thye Goh May 09 '19 at 16:10
  • Please tell me of cases where supremum is not in a continuous range of values (like reals), & does not exist too. – jiten May 09 '19 at 16:15
  • $\mathbb{N}, \mathbb{Z}, \mathbb{Q}$. – Siong Thye Goh May 09 '19 at 16:16
  • My request that the values are not in a continuous range, like reals, was wrongly worded. Should have stated: values are not unbounded. But, then the issue is solved. But, then my earlier questions (in earlier posts, for questions from this book) stated $s=\infty$ for unbounded sets. So, are those all answers wrong? – jiten May 09 '19 at 16:22
  • check the definition of supremum in your book. Answer the two questions: Does supremum have to be a real number? is $\infty$ a real number? If the answer is yes to the first question and no to the second, then yes, the answers are wrong. – Siong Thye Goh May 09 '19 at 16:24
  • No, supremum does not have to be confined to reals, but depends on the set's range type. If the set is having values in $\mathbb{Z}$, then $s\in \mathbb{Z}$. $\infty$ is an undefined value, as no arithmetical operations can be performed on it. Although, the value type of $\infty$ must depend on the range of which it is part of, whether $\mathbb{Z}$ or $\mathbb{R}$. – jiten May 09 '19 at 16:31
  • Please look into my comments to answer regarding different way to prove part (ii) at : https://math.stackexchange.com/a/3219235/424260 – jiten May 10 '19 at 04:57
  • Please for my last comment, join chat. – jiten May 10 '19 at 07:02
  • Please for my last comment, join chat. – jiten May 10 '19 at 13:29
  • Please see & vet my post at https://math.stackexchange.com/q/3221520/424260 – jiten May 10 '19 at 22:55
  • Please post an answer to my post stated in last comment. Any small answer would suffice to prevent its eventual deletion, i.e. just 2 votes away. – jiten May 11 '19 at 05:41
  • Please help on my last comment. I feel it is a good question that shows beautifully why tinkering with axiom is useless. – jiten May 11 '19 at 07:19