3

Here is an excellent answer by David C. Ullrich to my old question. In his answer, he proves the following theorem by doing a transfinite induction on the cardinality of the base of topology.

If $X$ is an infinite-dimensional separable Banach space then there exists a Hamel basis which is dense in $X$.

However in his answer the steps of transfinite induction is not written out explicitly. Since I am not familiar with such type of proof, I struggle to make it complete.

Can any one write that transfinite induction out explicitly, seperating the proof into Zero case, Successor case and Limit case?

I have offered my own answer, but I am very unsure about it. Can anyone check if it is completely accurate?

Ma Joad
  • 7,420

3 Answers3

3

Edit: At the bottom there's an argument using Zorn's lemma instead of explicit transfinite recursion.

Here's what I believe is a correct proof - would have included the details in my previous post on the topic except that something, I don't recall what, was bothering me about the transfinite recursion.

Say $X$ is a vector space of dimension $\kappa$, where $\kappa$ is some infinite cardinal. NOTE that I'm assuming standard Von Neumann cardinals; in particular $\kappa$ is an ordinal, and notations like $(x_\alpha)_{\alpha<\kappa}$ below refer to ordinals $\alpha$.

Say $S$ is a Hamel basis of cardinality $\kappa$. Let $B$ be the collection of balls $B(x,r)$ with $x$ a (finite) linear combination of elements of $S$ with rational coefficients and rational $r>0$. Then $B$ has cardinalilty $\kappa$, so we can "enumerate" $B$: $B=(B_\alpha)_{\alpha<\kappa}$.

It's enough to show that there exists an independent set $(x_\alpha)_{\alpha<\kappa}$ with $x_\alpha\in B_\alpha$. (That's enough because Zorn shows that any independent set is contained in a maximal independent set, which is to say a basis.) Transfinite recursion doesn't actually require that we handle the "base case" separately (see below), but if it makes you happy we can begin by choosing $x_0\in B_0$< $x_0\ne0$.

Transfinite recursion also does not require that we handle limit ordinals and succesor ordinals separately, we just have to deal with $\alpha$, assuming we've handled $\beta$ for all $\beta<\alpha$. In particular, at least assuming the axiom of choice, it's enough to show this:

This: If $\alpha<\kappa$ and $(x_\beta)_{\beta<\alpha}$ is an independent set with $x_\beta\in B_\beta$ for all $\beta<\alpha$ then there exists $x_\alpha\in B_\alpha$ such that $(x_\beta)_{\beta\le\alpha}$ is independent.

And this is the same as before: Let $X_\alpha$ be the span of $(x_\beta)_{\beta<\alpha}$. Since $\kappa$ is a cardinal, the cardiinality of $\alpha$ is less then $\kappa$; now since $\kappa$ is the dimension of $X$ we have $X_\alpha\ne X$. Hence (easy exercise) $X_\alpha$ has empty interior, so there exists $x_\alpha\in B_\alpha\setminus X_\alpha$.

Or look at it this way: Suppose $(B_\alpha)$ is as above and we want to show there exists $(x_\alpha)$ as above.

Let $O$ be the set of linearly independent "sequences" $(x_\beta)_{\beta<\alpha}$ for $\alpha\le\kappa$, where $x_\beta\in B_\beta$ for all $\beta<\alpha$. Order $O$ by saying $(x_\beta)_{\beta<\alpha}\le(y_\beta)_{\beta<\gamma}$ if $\alpha\le\gamma$ and $x_\beta=y_\beta$ for all $\beta<\alpha$. It's easy to see from Zorn's lemma that $O$ has a maximal element $(x_\beta)_{\beta<\alpha}$, and then arguing as above shows that $\alpha=\kappa$.

Note It looks like I've inserted a proof of the Recursion Theorem using Zorn's Lemma. That seems morally wrong, since the Recursion Theorem, if I'm not mistaken, does not depend on the Axiom of Choice.

But AC is required for the "It's enough to show this:" above. The point is that once we've proved This it follows from AC that there exists a function $F$ with domain whatever such that if $(x_\beta)_{\beta<\alpha}$ is as in This then $x_\alpha=F((x_\beta)_{\beta<\alpha})$ works. We need that function to be able to apply the AC-not-required Recursion Theorem.

Comment: Someone said that he found the Zorn's lemma version much clearer. That's great; of course the reason I added it was I thought some people would feel that way. But if that applies to you you should consider this: It's worthwhile becoming more comfortable with transfinite recursion/induction! Because once you're familiar with it can seem much more natural and simpler:

Roughly speaking, in a "transfinite" argument we're given $x_\beta$ for $ beta<\alpha$ and we need to show there exists an $x_\alpha$ that works (where the definition of "$x_\alpha$ works" depends on what you're doing). The work involved in doing that will typically bbe more or less the same as showing every chain has an upper bound in a ZL proof. But now once you've done that it's all simpler conceptually; you just keep going until you can't go any farther, instead of invoking the gods to hand you that maximal element.

In fact, having done the separable case (elsewhere on MSE) it was immediately clear to me how to extend it to the non-separable case by transfinite induction, while I did not see how to do it by Zorn the first few times I tried (see the question below, to be added soon, for why not). So at least for one with my limited powers, the transfinite induction was definitely simpler, qed.

Question: The argument by Zorn is curious. It's wasteful, in that we apply AC twice, first in the well-ordering of $B$ at the start. Or: It's still "really" a proof by transfinite recursion, just using Zorn to show the recursion works.

I never did see how to make a "pure Zorn" argument work here. That would be an argument like so: Let $O$ be the set of independent sets $(x_i)_{i\in I}$ where $I\subset B$ and $x_i\in i$. We get a maximal element in the obvious order, but I don't see why $(x_i)_{i\in I}$ being maximal should imply $I=B$, as required. (In both versions of the correct argument above it's crucial that if $\alpha<\kappa$ then $card(\alpha)<dim(X)$, allowing us to show that $(x_\beta)_{\beta<\alpha}$ cannot be maximial. The problem here is that $I$ could be a proper subset of $B$ with the same cardinality.)

If it's not clear why I called this a "question": The question is whether anyone sees a simple tweak to make a "pure Zorn" argument as above work. Ie with no preliminary well ordering...

  • So is my own proof wrong? I am doing the same thing as what you are doing. But I tried to define $E_\gamma$ every step in the induction, so the successor and limit cases have to be tackled seperately. – Ma Joad Feb 07 '19 at 22:54
  • @MaJoad I have no idea whether it's right or wrong. I find it very hard to follow your version. (A string of words ending "where $\beta$ is the least ordinal with" is not a sentence, for example) – David C. Ullrich Feb 07 '19 at 23:37
  • Oh sorry I messed up the subscripts. Now I have corrected all errors. Is it correct now? – Ma Joad Feb 08 '19 at 01:27
  • @MaJoad It's not clear enough to really decide. – David C. Ullrich Feb 08 '19 at 02:34
  • Ok. Thank you. The zorn's Lemma approach is much clearer. – Ma Joad Feb 08 '19 at 02:49
  • 2
    @HoldingArthur: You say that, and to some extent it's true that Zorn's lemma is clearer. But it is only clearer since you're more used to it, and have seen more examples of it. Just like you don't need all the details when proving something with a simple induction, or defining a simple sequence recursively, and you'd never think to use Zorn's lemma for that, this recursion is fairly standard. You've just been miseducated that transfinite recursion is hard, or technical, or whatnot. And that's false. Once you're used to this tool, the proof reduces to a two sentences line: – Asaf Karagila Feb 08 '19 at 07:35
  • "Note that the basis of the topology is at most the cardinality of the space. Enumerate the basic open balls, and recursively choose a basis which meets every basic open set." – Asaf Karagila Feb 08 '19 at 07:36
  • @AsafKaragila Yes you are right. I just cannot express myself clearly when I am doing transfinite recursive construction. I got the subscripts wrong over and over again in my proof. What I have doubt about transfinite construction is the phrase "recursively choose a basis". That technically means to repeatedly add elements into a set, i.e. perform union operation ($\bigcup$) again and again. So it feels uncomfortable not to write the union of sets notation out explicitly. So is my way to write the proof correct now? – Ma Joad Feb 08 '19 at 07:52
  • @HoldingArthur See the Comment I added... – David C. Ullrich Feb 08 '19 at 12:26
  • @AsafKaragila As long as this has become a student set theory seminar: Feel free to say something about the "question" at the bottom... – David C. Ullrich Feb 08 '19 at 13:18
  • @DavidC.Ullrich But I have really changed it a lot after your comment. Thank you for reading my bad proof before that. – Ma Joad Feb 08 '19 at 13:18
  • @HoldingArthur You still don't explain what yoour doing or jjustiify things. Close to the start: I don't see any reason why your "Succesive case" should work. Because there's no reason I can see why you know that $E-\gamma$ does not already span $X$ (in which case there's no $x_\gamma$ available. – David C. Ullrich Feb 08 '19 at 13:24
  • @HoldingArthur That problem would be ok if you assumed at the start that $\beta$ was a cardinal. Maybe that's what you meant, but if so you need to say so. Then you need to explain why $E_\gamma$ does not span. – David C. Ullrich Feb 08 '19 at 13:27
  • @DavidC.Ullrich Thank you. I have edited my answer accordingly. – Ma Joad Feb 08 '19 at 13:44
  • @DavidC.Ullrich The outline of proof you give after your question is unlikely to be successful, if I understand it correctly, because any Hamel basis can be the maximal element $(x_i){i\in I}$. (since we cannot expand Hamel anymore without making it linearly _dependent, it is maximal) There are ample examples of Hamel Basis that are NOT dense, so it cannot be proven that $(x_i){i\in I}$ is dense, or $I=B$, from the maximality of $(x_i){i\in I}$. Am I right? – Ma Joad Feb 08 '19 at 14:47
  • @HoldingArthur Well yes - I understood why it didn't work, the question was whether anyone saw a simple way to fix it. – David C. Ullrich Feb 08 '19 at 15:04
  • @David: I think that a "pure Zorn" argument would be tantamount to what I wrote in the OP's other question about BCT. Maybe a bit simpler. But I don't see an easy way. As I wrote there, right tool for the right mission. – Asaf Karagila Feb 08 '19 at 15:42
  • @DavidC.Ullrich "It's wasteful, in that we apply AC twice" I think AC is used twice in your recursive proof as well, so it is NOT a problem. In the recursive proof, the first time you use AC is of course the well-ordering. The second time, well, you do need a choice function to choose points recursively, don't you? – Ma Joad Feb 08 '19 at 23:12
  • @HoldingArthur Yes. – David C. Ullrich Feb 09 '19 at 01:53
1

Some mitigating facts:

  1. If $X$ is an infinite dimensional Banach space, then $|X|=\dim X$, this is because the dimension of an infinite dimensional Banach space is at least $2^{\aleph_0}$, and therefore the equality is satisfied.

  2. If $B$ is an open set in a Banach space, then either $B$ is empty, or the span of $B$ is the whole space. This is easy to see when noting that every open ball is a shift and scaling away from the unit ball, which of course spans the whole space.


The outline as I might have written it in a paper, or in an email to a colleague.

Enumerate $B(x,q)$ where $x\in V$ and $q\in\Bbb Q$ in order type $\kappa=|X|$, with $B_\alpha$ the $\alpha$th set in the enumeration. Now recursively choose linearly independent vectors $x_\alpha$ such that $x_\alpha\in B_\alpha$. If necessary, extend to a basis at the end.


More formally, we define $E_\beta$ by recursion as a sequence of increasing linearly independent sets. Suppose that $E_\alpha$ were defined for all $\alpha<\beta$, then $E_\beta=\bigcup_{\alpha<\beta} E_\alpha\cup\{x_\beta\}$ such that $x_\beta\in B_\beta$ and $x_\beta$ is not in $\operatorname{span}(\bigcup_{\alpha<\beta}E_\alpha)$.

If $\beta<\kappa$, such $x_\beta$ exists, since $\bigcup_{\alpha<\beta} E_\alpha$ has cardinality $<\kappa$, so its span does not contain $B_\beta$.

Let $E=\bigcup_{\alpha<\kappa}E_\alpha$. Then $E$ is a linearly independent set, which can now be extended to a basis of $X$ if necessary, so assume that $E$ is already a basis. Since for all $B_\alpha$, $E\cap B_\alpha\neq\varnothing$, it follows that $E$ is dense as well.

Asaf Karagila
  • 393,674
  • Thanks. I will learn from your way of writing it. (the way I write it may by inappropriate to some extend) – Ma Joad Feb 08 '19 at 13:20
0

Let a base $B$ of the topology be indexed by a cardinal $\beta$, $B=\{O_\alpha:\alpha<\beta\}$. Let $\beta$ have the same cardinality as $\dim{X}$.

Zero case: Choose $e_1\neq 0$ to be in $O_1$. Let $E_1=\{e_1\}$.

Successive case: Suppose $E_\gamma=\{e_\alpha:\alpha<\gamma\}$ have been defined, then $E_{\gamma+1}=E_{\gamma}\cup\{e_\gamma\}$, where $e_\gamma \in {O_\gamma}$ is chosen to be a vector independent of $E_\gamma$. Since $\gamma+1<\dim{X}$, $E_\gamma$ does not span $X$, and such an independent vector exists.

Limit case: Let $B_\gamma=\{O_\alpha:\alpha<\gamma\}$. Suppose $E_\gamma$ have been defined for all $\gamma<\phi$, where $\phi$ is a limiting ordinal. Since $B_\phi=\bigcup_{\gamma<\phi}B_\phi$, we define that $E_\phi=\bigcup_{\gamma<\phi}E_\gamma$.

$E_\phi$ is therefore an independent set. In fact, if the set $E_\phi$ is NOT independent, there exist linearly dependent vectors ${e_{\delta_1},...,e_{\delta_n}}$. Let the maximal ordinals in $\delta_1,...,\delta_n$ be $\delta$, then ${e_{\delta_1},...,e_{\delta_n}}\in E_{\delta+1}$. This means that $E_{\delta+1}$ is linearly dependent (Note that $\delta+1<\phi$) a contradiction.

For the same reason, $E_\beta$ is independent. It is also dense. So the theorem is proved.

So please tell me if I have got anything wrong, or too complicated.

Thanks.

Ma Joad
  • 7,420
  • 1
    @TheoBendit The question forced the dimension to be infinite. – Ian Feb 07 '19 at 04:34
  • This looks weird. It looks more like you're proving by induction on the dimension of the space that this is possible. And that's not the point. The point is to enumerate the Banach space, and recursively choose linearly independent points which are also very close to everything. – Asaf Karagila Feb 07 '19 at 08:16
  • @AsafKaragila I have added two sentences to the answer. I am actually doing an induction on the cardinality of the base of topology, and a Banach space always has a base with the same cardinality as the dimension. Could you explain what you mean more? – Ma Joad Feb 07 '19 at 11:07
  • @AsafKaragila I do exactly what you say--to choose points recursively. So please point out what's wrong. – Ma Joad Feb 07 '19 at 13:24
  • The punchline seems simply wrong: The union of a set of independent sets need not be independent. – David C. Ullrich Feb 07 '19 at 13:47
  • @DavidC.Ullrich Ok. Now I have edited my proof to show that $E$ is independent. I will be glad if you can tell me what else are wrong. Please understand me, because for me set theory is full of illusions. – Ma Joad Feb 07 '19 at 14:05
  • 1
    My point is that your "zero case" and "successive case" are irrelevant for the actual proof. And your assumption seems to be that you're performing an induction on the cardinality of something. This is not the purpose of the recursive construction. – Asaf Karagila Feb 07 '19 at 14:07
  • The new version solves the issue I raised, if you know that $E_\alpha\subset E_\beta$ for $\alpha<\beta$; the union of a chain of independent sets is independent. But I don't see how you know that $E_\alpha$ increases with $\beta$. – David C. Ullrich Feb 07 '19 at 14:56
  • Sorry. Now I know what terrible thing I have written then. I have edit my proof to clean it up. Is it okay now? – Ma Joad Feb 07 '19 at 15:17
  • 1
    Using $\omega$ for anything other than the first infinite ordinal/the natural numbers, is like using $\Bbb R$ as an integration variable. – Asaf Karagila Feb 08 '19 at 07:53
  • @AsafKaragila Now I have changed all the $\omega$ to $\phi$. I know it is a "free" variable. Is it all correct now? – Ma Joad Feb 08 '19 at 08:27
  • @AsafKaragila And does my steps reflect how the basis is formed? – Ma Joad Feb 08 '19 at 10:21
  • The induction is fine. You just have to argue why you can still choose members without introducing dependency in successor steps. Also, induction is a proof technique, this is recursion. And as far as transfinite recursion goes, it's pretty standard. – Asaf Karagila Feb 08 '19 at 10:28
  • @AsafKaragila Thank you so much! I have ignored something because I was trying so hard to avoid "transfinite illusions" and to write it clearly. To understand something intuitively and to write it down rigorously is different. – Ma Joad Feb 08 '19 at 10:32
  • @AsafKaragila Re "The induction is fine. You just have to argue why you can still choose members without introducing dependency in successor steps." My impresson is that the induction is not fine, and he can't argue that he can choose the next member, because it's not so. Because his $\beta$ need not be a cardinal.. – David C. Ullrich Feb 08 '19 at 13:42
  • @David: Right, I meant that the structure of the argument is fine. – Asaf Karagila Feb 08 '19 at 13:48