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$\mathbb{R}$ is a set. By one construction, its elements are precisely those sets called "cuts".

$\mathbb{Q}$ is a set. None of its elements are "cuts."

Thus, $\mathbb{Q} \cap \mathbb{R}$ must intersect on the empty set. However, most mathematicians would find such logic overly pedantic (I think).

How can I reconcile this?

amWhy
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extremeaxe5
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    In the Dedekin cuts model one considers $\mathbb{Q}$ embedded in the reals as the cuts $(A,B)$ in which $B$ has minimum. – SphericalTriangle Mar 19 '18 at 20:41
  • Relatedly: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/14828/set-theoretic-definition-of-numbers?noredirect=1&lq=1. – Noah Schweber Mar 19 '18 at 20:43
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    Essentially, there are lots of different "sets" we call $\mathbb Q.$ We can separate them to be precise, but it rarely matters. We could define set of real numbers $\mathbb Q_1.$ Similarly, embedding the natural numbers into the integers, and the integers into the rationals. – Thomas Andrews Mar 19 '18 at 20:46
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    The way this is handled in Landau's lovely Foundations of Analysis is to stay that in each stage of the construction of a new number system from an old one we "throw out" the old notion (e.g., $\Bbb{Q}$ as equivalence classes of pairs of integers) and replace it by the new one (e.g., $\Bbb{Q}$ as Dedekind cuts). In practice, one works with the axioms that characterize the number systems and not the underlying representations (as cuts or Cauchy sequences or whatever) except when reasoning about the constructions that show those axioms are consistent. – Rob Arthan Mar 19 '18 at 21:09

3 Answers3

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There exists an injective relation from $\mathbb Q$ to $\mathbb R$

$$q\mapsto \{x \in \mathbb Q| x< q\}$$

and typically, we speak about the image of $\mathbb Q$ under that injection, not about $\mathbb Q$ itself, so we say that $\mathbb Q\subseteq\mathbb R$.

5xum
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  • @ThomasAndrews Thanks, it was a case of the fingers being quicker than the mind. – 5xum Mar 19 '18 at 20:47
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    To be perfectly explicit, there are two different (but closely related) sets here which are both being called by the same name $\mathbb Q$, with the hope that it will be clear from context which particular set we are referring to. – littleO Mar 19 '18 at 20:56
  • @littleO, other than the set of real rational numbers, what else does the label "$\mathbb{Q}$" go on? – robert bristow-johnson Mar 19 '18 at 20:58
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    @robertbristow-johnson We label both $\mathbb Q$ and the image of $\mathbb Q$ under the mapping I describe in my answer with $\mathbb Q$. – 5xum Mar 19 '18 at 20:59
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Well, sure, I suppose in a strictly set-theoretic sense you're right. But I think this ignores the pragmatic, human aspect of mathematics.

It only really makes sense to talk about the intersection of two sets if they somehow "live in the same world". For instance, you could define $\mathbb{R}$ as a set of Dedekind cuts, or you could define $\mathbb{R}$ as a set of decimal expansions (under some appropriate equivalence relation), and both would be perfectly good definitions of $\mathbb{R}$; but Dedekind cuts and decimal expansions aren't the same thing, so does that mean that $\mathbb{R}$ (the first one) $\cap \mathbb{R}$ (the second one) $= \varnothing$? I suppose so, yes. But this isn't a profound mathematical fact so much as crappy notation: these don't both deserve to be called $\mathbb{R}$, because they have nothing to do with each other yet.

In reality, the set of Dedekind cuts is one nice way of modelling $\mathbb{R}$, and the set of decimal expansions is another. Neither of them is $\mathbb{R}$ any more than the other is. You can define one to be your favourite, canonical copy of $\mathbb{R}$ if you like, but then suddenly the other isn't $\mathbb{R}$ any more. In order to meaningfully call them both $\mathbb{R}$, you need to also specify some way of identifying their elements.

Likewise, when you construct $\mathbb{R}$ from $\mathbb{Q}$ as a set of Dedekind cuts, if you try to take the naive set-theoretic intersection then you get something trivial, of course. But this ignores the fact that we want to construct $\mathbb{Q}$ as something sitting inside $\mathbb{R}$ - otherwise, why are we doing it in the first place, if we now have two different and completely incomparable notions of the number $5$?

This is why set-theoretic equality is usually way too strong a notion for most mathematical purposes, and we often deal with things like isomorphisms, natural isomorphisms, equivalences under various relations, etc.

Billy
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Consider this picture:

"Universe of numbers": $\ \mathbb Q \subset ??????$

mapping between universes: $\updownarrow\updownarrow$

"Universe of dedekind cuts": $\mathbb Q^* \subset \mathbb R^*$

$\mathbb Q$ are the rational numbers. It's an ordered field. In particular it is an ordered field generated by $\langle 1 \rangle$.

$\mathbb R^*$ is the set of all dedekind cuts of the rational numbers. If $A\le B$ is defined as $A \subset B$ then $\mathbb R^*$ is an ordered field.

Now $\mathbb Q^*$ is a subset of $\mathbb R^*$. It is the subset of all cuts which actually have a rational least upper bound (as opposed to the cuts of which there is no rational least upper bound). This is a subfield of $\mathbb R^*$.

And $\mathbb Q^*$ is equivalent in every sense of the word to the field $\mathbb Q$.

So there is an equivalence mapping between the "two universes".

But that means if we "retro-equivalence" back from $\mathbb R^*$ in the universe o cuts, back to the universe of numbers, we co retroactively discover an ordered field $??????$ that is equivalent to $\mathbb R^*$ and of which $\mathbb Q$ is a subfield.

That field is $\mathbb R$, the ordered field of the real numbers, in which every real number is the least upper bound of a dedekind cut.

....

Okay, to put it in a less esoteric woo-woo way:

Being a "cut" itself is entirely equivalent to being the least upper bound of a cut. Every rational number, $q$ is equivalent to the cut $A_q = (-\infty, q)$ where $\sup A_q = q$. And as a collection the rational numbers with field operations and order, is completely equivalent to all such "rational cuts" as a collection with field operations with order.

And every real number $x$ is equivalent to the cut $A_x = (-\infty, ????)$ where $\sup A_x = x$. [In actuality, after we have defined the real numbers, we can see that $A_x = (-\infty, x)$; we jst had no way to express such an idea before we had the real numbers defined.] And as a collection, the real of real numbers (with field operations and order) is completely equivalent to the ordered field of all dedekind cuts.

So we think of the cuts and the least upper bounds of the cuts as being equivalent. In that way the $\mathbb Q$ (whether we think of it as a set of cuts or as the set of rational numbers that are least upper bounds of cuts) will be a subset of $\mathbb R$ (whether we think of it as a set of cuts or as the set or rational and/or irrational number that are the least upper bounds of cuts).

But of course if we think of $\mathbb Q$ is one way, and $\mathbb R$ in a different way, we get ... confusion.

fleablood
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