1

How to prove that every group possesing elements of arbitarily large finitie order is equivalent to a group in which there is an element of infinitie oreder?

As equivalent i mean elementary equivalent structures

Two structures M and N of the same signature σ are elementarily equivalent if every first-order sentence (formula without free variables) over σ is true in M if and only if it is true in N

  • 1
    The group of integers under addition has elements of infinite order, but not elements of arbitrary large finite order. So your statement is not true. – Nicky Hekster Dec 04 '17 at 17:48
  • @NickyHekster you are talking about another statement. I ask about groups which already have elements large order – just a student Dec 04 '17 at 17:52
  • No, @NickyHekster is right: the argument supplied shows the direction $\Leftarrow$ is false. – Randall Dec 04 '17 at 18:02
  • @Randall he is right, i agree, but i asked another thing. I asked in direction i asked. If it is not right in $\Leftarrow$ direction, it doesn't mean that in another direction is also false. If he find a group possesing extrimelly large order elements, but not possesing infinitie oreder element, it would be proof – just a student Dec 04 '17 at 18:11
  • "equivalent" means BOTH $\Leftarrow$ and $\Rightarrow$. – Randall Dec 04 '17 at 18:12
  • Oh wait, do you mean "equivalent" as "isomorphic" and not logical equivalence? – Randall Dec 04 '17 at 18:13
  • Wait, that would be a lame question and also false. Never mind (until the question is clearer). – Randall Dec 04 '17 at 18:15
  • 3
    It's wrong in both directions because there are groups that contain no elements of infinite order but contain elements of order greater than $n$ for all $n>0$. – Derek Holt Dec 04 '17 at 18:17
  • OK, now it's worse. I do not know what "elementary equivalent structures" means. – Randall Dec 04 '17 at 18:27
  • Holy smokes, okay. Good luck! – Randall Dec 04 '17 at 18:31
  • @Randall Two structures M and N of the same signature σ are elementarily equivalent if every first-order sentence (formula without free variables) over σ is true in M if and only if it is true in N, i.e. if M and N have the same complete first-order theory. – just a student Dec 04 '17 at 18:31
  • 1
    @justastudent: Consider taking an infinite ultrapower of your group. – Moishe Kohan Dec 04 '17 at 19:12

2 Answers2

2

To prove this, you're going to have to use the compactness theorem, together with a neat trick: expanding the language by a constant. You want to take the theory of $G$ and get a model of that theory with an element $g$ satisfying "I have infinite order." There are a couple of problems with this:

  • "I have infinite order" isn't a first-order formula. (Actually, this is a good thing - otherwise the problem would be false. Do you see why?)

  • How are we going to talk about $g$, given that there's no symbol for it in our language (and that probably no such element even exists in $G$ in the first place)?

These are solved as follows:

  • Can you think of a set of formulas $\Sigma$ in the language of groups such that satisfying every formula in $\Sigma$ is the same as having infinite order?

  • Expand the language of groups by a new constant symbol "$c$" (intended to name the mysterious $g$ we want). We now want a new theory $T$ in this language, a model of which will count as our $H$. Being a model of $T$ should imply being elementarily equivalent to $G$, so we certainly want $Th(G)\subseteq T$, but we also want to ensure that $c$ corresponds to an element of infinite order:

    • What axioms should we add to $Th(G)$ to accomplish this? (Think about the previous bullet.)

    • Why is the resulting theory $T$ consistent? (What hypothesis on $G$ do we have to use here?)

    • Why is any model of $T$ a group that's elementarily equivalent to $G$? (Note that this isn't actually true on the nose - there is one final, very small step you have to do to get the group you want.)


EDIT: A small comment on the axiom of choice (in response to Moishe Cohen's answer): the axiom of choice is not necessary for this problem. There are two points here.

  • First, we don't actually need to take ultrapowers to build the desired $H$ - the compactness theorem alone suffices.

  • Second, although compactness is often proved using ultraproducts, this is unnecessary: it can also be proved by Henkinization. Not only does this avoid the specific machinery of ultraproducts, it also avoids the axiom of choice, at least in this case: while it is true that the full compactness theorem$^1$ requires choice$^2$ in the step where we pass from a theory to a completion of that theory$^3$, the compactness theorem for well-orderable languages is provable in ZF alone since for well-orderable languages Henkinization never needs to invoke choice at all. In particular, the language of groups + a constant symbol is finite, so we don't need choice here.

That said, ultrapowers are really cool, and once you're comfortable with them they let you build a wide variety of examples of structures with interesting properties.

$^1$That is, for arbitrary languages.

$^2$In the sense that it is not provable from ZF alone - it's still much weaker than the full axiom of choice

$^3$In this step, for arbitrary languages, we really do need an ultrafilter - namely, an ultrafilter on the Lindenbaum algebra. In fact, this turns out to be exactly what we need to prove the compactness theorem.

Noah Schweber
  • 245,398
  • Can you prove the compactness theorem without knowing the existence of nonprincipal ultrafilters? – Moishe Kohan Dec 04 '17 at 19:57
  • https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/402543/is-the-compactness-theorem-from-mathematical-logic-equivalent-to-the-axiom-of – Moishe Kohan Dec 04 '17 at 20:01
  • @MoisheCohen Yes - as I stated in my answer, for well-orderable languages compactness is provable in ZF via Henkinzation. Ultraproducts are unnecessary. Where choice comes in unavoidably is the step in in the Henkinization proof where we pass from a theory $T$ to a complete theory extending it: if our language is well-orderable this is trivial, but otherwise we need an ultrafilter on the Lindenbaum algebra. – Noah Schweber Dec 04 '17 at 20:41
  • Oh, I see, I did not read the edit close enough, sorry for that. – Moishe Kohan Dec 04 '17 at 20:43
  • @MoisheCohen See the remark on page 10 of these notes. – Noah Schweber Dec 04 '17 at 20:43
  • @MoisheCohen I've edited for clarity - I realized part of my answer as written might suggest that full compactness is provable without any choice, which isn't true. – Noah Schweber Dec 04 '17 at 20:50
0

A clean way to do this is to choose (I hope, you are OK with the AC, otherwise, I cannot help you) a nonprincipal ultrafilter $\omega$ on ${\mathbb N}$ and, given your group $G$ (with elements of arbitrarily high finite order), consider the ultraproduct $$ H:= \left( \prod_{n\in {\mathbb N}} G\right)/\omega. $$ By Los' Theorem, $G$ and $H$ are elementary-equivalent. A the same time, $H$ will have an element of infinite order. I will let you figure out which one.

Moishe Kohan
  • 97,719
  • "I hope, you are OK with the AC, otherwise, I cannot help you" While (some) choice is needed for ultrapowers, no choice is needed for this particular problem. – Noah Schweber Dec 04 '17 at 19:35