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Let $A \subset \Bbb{Z}$ be such that, there is a well-defined map $\pi: \Bbb{Z} \to \Bbb{Z}/A = \{ x + A : x \in \Bbb{Z}\}$ that's a homomorphism of rings.

Thus we're not strictly tied to ideals $A$.

For example, let $A = \pm$ the odd primes. Then $x + A = y + A \iff x = y$ otherwise $x -y + A = A$ or there is a number $z$ such that $z + p$ is an odd prime for every $p\in A$. Such a number can easily be shown not to exist. Thus a well-defined multiplication and addition on $\Bbb{Z}/A$ are induced.

Thus the kernel of the map $\pi$ is $0$ and $\Bbb{Z}/A \simeq \Bbb{Z}$. However, if we enlarge the set $A$ to be the full set of odd numbers. Then we also get a well defined map $\pi$:

$x + A = y + A \iff x - y + A = A \iff x - y = 2k$ for some $k \in \Bbb{Z}$. It is an exercise to manually check that multiplication and addition are satisfied. But we'll do it just to be sure:

$$ \bar{x} = \bar{x}', \bar{y} = \bar{y}' \implies \\ x - x' = 2m, \ y - y' = 2n \implies \\ (x + y) - (x' + y') = 2(m + n) \\ \text{and,} \ (x - x')(y - y') = 2mn \iff \\xy - x'y' = x'y -y'x + 2mn = 2k $$

Thus $\ker \pi = 2\Bbb{Z}$ and $\Bbb{Z}/A \simeq \Bbb{Z}/2\Bbb{Z}$.

Conjecture. If $A \subset B$ then $\ker \pi_A \subset \ker \pi_B$.

Let $A = $ the odd primes, and $B = $ the odd numbers.

Question. Can you describe a proper subset $A \subsetneq C \subsetneq B$ such that $Z/C$ is well-defined?

I think this might relate to the problem of $A - A = 2\Bbb{Z}$ which hasn't been proved yet.

  • The answer by freakish is being disingenuous. It claims to be taking a quotient modulo ${1}$, but it is really taking a quotient modulo ${0}$ and describing it by claiming it is taking translates of $1+{0}$ instead of ${0}$. They are the same thing. If you are taking a quotient and the result is a ring with the induced operations, you are really taking it modulo an ideal, and what that poster is doing is hiding that behind a curtain of words. – Arturo Magidin Apr 22 '20 at 20:43
  • @freakish: I did understand your answer. First, you explicitly stated that you could take quotients modulo things that were not ideals or even subgroups, but what you were doing by way of example was to define it in terms of an ideal and then hiding that fact by replacing the ideal with a translate. Any way that you define an equivalence relation in a way that allows you to define an addition and multiplication in terms of representatives is a quotient modulo an ideal, no matter how you hide that fact. And I neither downvoted nor voted to delete, not that it matters. – Arturo Magidin Apr 23 '20 at 16:55
  • @freakish: I know you didn’t define it in terms of ideals. These are not “accusations”. The sets you took form a partition; partitions are equivalence relations. You then defined an operation in terms of representatives for that partition; that’s a congruence. Just because you didn’t call it an equivalence relation doesn’t mean there wasn’t an equivalence relation, you just didn’t call it one. Likewise, you didn’t define it in terms of ideals, but what you did amounts to exactly the same thing as defining it in terms of ideals. Not mentioning them explicitly doesn’t mean they’re not there. – Arturo Magidin Apr 23 '20 at 17:21
  • @freakish As to your second (deleted?) comment, let me clarify: your answer was referenced as solving a different question (this one )which is what brought attention to your answer. Not a conspiracy but simply people being pointed to it and thus getting attention. – Arturo Magidin Apr 23 '20 at 17:22
  • @freakish: Perhaps you did not realize you were really defining equivalence relations, congruences, and using ideals while thinking that this was not the case. But, as a matter fact, that is what you were doing, even if you weren’t calling them that. You mention “addition and multiplication being well defined”, but for that to happen, you must be defining what amounts to the equivalence relation “congruence modulo $I$” for an ideal $I$, even if you don’t call it that. What you did in your example was “congruent modulo ${0}$” (an ideal), even though you didn’t call it that. – Arturo Magidin Apr 23 '20 at 17:28
  • @freakish: What your answer did was a partitioning, it was a partition modulo ${0}$ described using a translate of ${0}$, and then asserting there was no subgroup/ideal involved. “Coset” comes from “congruence set”, meaning a congruence/equivalence relation is involved. As to your comment: now what you are doing, essentially, taking the subset ${(n,n+1)\mid n\in\mathbb{Z}}$ and then operating on them by ignoring the second coordinate and using only the first coordinate. You are just putting a hat and fake beard on every integer and then acting as if they are now different. – Arturo Magidin Apr 23 '20 at 17:42
  • @freakish: Look, in the end it’s like the Fundamental Theorem of Equivalence Relations, that says that every equivalence relation corresponds to a partition and vice versa. It doesn’t mean that when you define an equivalence relation you must do so via a partition or using an explicit partition, just that no matter what you do, if you end up with an equivalence relation, then it is the same as the equivalence relation induced by a specific partition. If you can define a ring using induced operation, no matter how you did, there is an ideal behind it. In the comment, ${0}$. – Arturo Magidin Apr 23 '20 at 17:52
  • Actually I've decided there's no point in arguing. I'm done. Have a good day. – freakish Apr 23 '20 at 18:04
  • @Arturo For the record, your claim that freakish's "answer was referenced as solving a different question" is not quite correct. Rather, I merely wrote "See also [this question]". In fact I didn't even peruse the answers since I ran out of time. Luckily others did. There are probably other (better) dupe targets for questions like these but I didn't have time to continue the search any further. – Bill Dubuque Apr 23 '20 at 19:01
  • @freakish I'm disappointed to see that some of your prior replies were apparently deleted (I didn't see them). It is often valuable pedagogically to know what leads to oversights. If you think there may have been something of pedagogical value there then please consider (re)posting them since this may help others who are learning the material (like the curvy warning signs in Bourbaki). – Bill Dubuque Apr 23 '20 at 19:07

1 Answers1

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Let $R$ be a ring and $A\subseteq R$. Let $R/A = \{x+A\mid x\in R\}$ be the set of cosets. Define relation $\equiv_A$ on $R$ with $$x\equiv_A y\iff x+A = y+A.$$

This relation is obviously equivalence relation on $R$. $R/A$ is a ring with well defined operations $$(x+A)+(y+A) = (x+y)+A\\(x+A)(y+A) = (xy+A)$$

induced by operations on $R$, if and only if $\equiv_A$ is a congruence, meaning that $\equiv_A$ is compatible with operations on $R$.

Denote with $\operatorname{Con}R$ the set of congruences on $R$ and with $\operatorname{Id}R$ the set of ideals of $R$. Let us define functions

\begin{align} \varphi\colon \operatorname{Con}R&\to\operatorname{Id}R &\psi\colon \operatorname{Id}R&\to\operatorname{Con}R\\ \equiv\, &\mapsto \{x\in R\mid x\equiv 0\} &I&\mapsto \{(x,y)\in R\times R\mid x - y\in I\}.\end{align}

You can easily verify that these functions are well defined and that they are inverse to each other. Moreover, they are order preserving! If we extend $\psi$ to all subsets of $R$, then it is well known that the induced relation $\psi(I)$ is congruence if and only if $I$ is ideal.

Let us now return to our congruence $\equiv_A$ and its associated ideal $I_A$. It is clear that $x+A = y + A$ if and only if $x-y+A = A$, i.e. $x\equiv_A y$ if and only if $x - y\in I_A$, which means that $\equiv_A$ is equal to induced congruence by $I_A$. We conclude that $\equiv_A$ is congruence if and only if $I_A$ is ideal. If $R/I_A$ is standard quotient by ideal, you can immediately verify that $R/I_A\cong R/A$, with isomorphism defined as $x+I\mapsto x+A$.

Returning to your examples.

  1. Let $A = \{\pm p\mid p\ \text{odd prime}\}$. Instead of checking that $\equiv_A$ is congruence, by the above discussion it is enough to check that $I_A = \{x\in R\mid x + A = A\}$ is ideal. Indeed, we get that $I_A = \{0\}$, so $\mathbb Z/A$ is a ring isomorphic to $\mathbb Z$.

  2. Let $B = \{2n+1\mid n\in\mathbb Z\}$. Then $I_B = 2\mathbb Z$, so $\mathbb Z/B$ is ring isomorphic to $\mathbb Z/2\mathbb Z$.


So far everything looks fine and dandy. However, working with general subsets of $R$ instead of ideals is very ill-behaved. The obvious reason is that we don't even know if $R/A$ is a ring or not. Furthermore, when $I\subseteq J$ are ideals of $R$, we get ring epimorphism $R/I\to R/J$. When $A\subseteq B$ are subsets of $R$, there might not even be nontrivial homomorphism $R/A\to R/B$.

For example, let $I$ a nonzero, proper ideal and $A = I\cup\{a\}$, $a\not\in I$. To prove that $R/A$ is a ring, we need to prove that $I_A = \{ x\in R\mid x + A = A\}$ is an ideal.

First, let me show that $I_A \subseteq I$. Let $x\in I_A$ and assume that $x\not\in I$. For all $y\in I$, we have $x + y \not\in I$ and in particular, $x + y = a$, i.e. $x = a - y$. This is contradiction, since $I$ is nonzero. Thus, $x\in I$.

Now, let $x\in I_A$. Since $a\not\in I$ and $x\in I$, we have $x+a\not\in I$, so $x+a = a$. Thus, $x = 0$. We conclude that $I_A = \{0\}$. In particular, $R/A$ is a ring isomorphic to $R$. Also, this example gives negative answer to your conjecture.

To answer your Question, let $C = \{2n+1\mid n\in\mathbb Z\}\setminus\{1\}$. To determine $I_C$, first note that $I_C \subseteq 2\mathbb Z$. Assume that $x\in I_C$, $x\neq 0$. Then, $x = 2n$, for nonzero $n$. Define $y = 1 - 2n\in C$. Then we have $x + y = 1\not\in C$. We conclude that $I_C = \{0\}$ and in particular $\mathbb Z/C$ is a ring isomorphic to $\mathbb Z$.


Finally, let me give an example of set $A$ such that $R/A$ is not a ring. If $A$ is additive subgroup of $R$, then it is easy to check that $I_A = A$. Thus, by the above general argument, $R/A$ is a ring if and only if $A$ is an ideal of $R$. So find additive subgroup that is not an ideal, and you will get an example of $R/A$ not being a ring.

However, if $A$ is additive subgroup, $R/A$ is abelian group. This is because, analogous to rings, there is bijective correspondence between congruences of a group and its normal subgroups.

Ennar
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