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How can Peano Arithmetic ever be proved consistent? Peano Arithmetic cannot prove itself consistent by the incompleteness theorem. So it requires some higher order theory. That may prove Peano consistent, but that proof itself can only be relied upon if the higher order theorem is itself consistent. Which it in turn cannot prove itself.

The higher order theorem therefore requires a further higher order theorem to prove it consistent. It would appear therefore, by induction that Peano Arithmetic can never be proven consistent. Is this correct?

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentzen's_consistency_proof , in case you are interested – user397701 Mar 27 '17 at 21:59
  • Yes, there is no possibility to prove that PA is consistent. Exact because of the reason you have given. – Peter Mar 27 '17 at 22:01
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    Is the consistency of arithmetic in $\mathbb{Z}_n$ a settled matter? If it is, then there isn't a real problem i.m.o. – Count Iblis Mar 27 '17 at 22:16
  • @CountIblis I didn't say there was an issue! But I law your point. Are you saying consistency of arithmetic is settled? – it's a hire car baby Mar 28 '17 at 09:14
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    The idea that proving consistency of $PA$ requires either "higher logic" or a stronger set of axioms in first-order logic is correct. However proof is what convinces one, so it might be overstating matters to say it "can never be proven consistent". Most practicing mathematicians accept as proof that $PA$ is consistent because it has a model (the natural numbers). – hardmath Mar 28 '17 at 16:36
  • @hardmath thanks. That sounds like taking the consistency of Peano as an axiom. – it's a hire car baby Mar 28 '17 at 17:23
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    There is an interesting inquiry underlying your question, which is why I didn't downvote or vote to close, and also posted an answer, but I think you should really work through the details for a proper understanding. – user21820 Mar 28 '17 at 18:42
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    @hardmath: It's a common misconception that one needs a stronger set of axioms. Assuming that PA is consistent, all we can say is that PA itself cannot prove Con(PA), but we can't say much about what theories prove Con(PA), other than that they do so and are not PA... – user21820 Mar 28 '17 at 18:45
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    What a terrible question, with some terrible comments. – Asaf Karagila Mar 28 '17 at 18:48
  • @user21820 Don't hold your breath for your suggestion to be followed. – Did Mar 29 '17 at 08:06
  • @Did ad hominem attack n+1 – it's a hire car baby Mar 29 '17 at 08:10
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    @RobertFrost Did you follow user21820's suggestion? If not, why? (Suggestion: Check the meaning of "ad hominem" in a dictionary.) – Did Mar 29 '17 at 08:17
  • @Did it means attacks "aimed at the person". Please leave me alone – it's a hire car baby Mar 29 '17 at 08:38
  • Did you follow user21820's suggestion? Rrrright... – Did Mar 29 '17 at 09:00

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"How can Peano Arithmetic ever be proved consistent?"

I assume you're asking for an absolute proof of consistency of (first-order) PA. That was more or less Hilbert's goal, namely to give a finitist proof of consistency of mathematics (yet to be defined but including arithmetic). The incompleteness theorems totally and finitistically demolished any hope of that, and any philosophers who think otherwise do not actually grasp the mathematics.

Furthermore, any practical foundational system whatsoever must necessarily be a syntactic system, and the mere acceptance of any such system requires ontological commitment to the basic properties of finite strings of symbols (whether abstract or in any physical medium), including:

  1. Closure of strings under concatenation $+$.
  2. Existence of an empty string $e$, namely $e+x = x = x+e$ for any string $x$.
  3. Associativity of $+$ on strings, namely $(x+y)+z = x+(y+z)$ for any strings $x,y,z$.
  4. Existence of distinct symbols $p,q$, namely distinct non-empty strings $p,q$ such that
    $p \ne u+v$ and $q \ne u+v$ for any non-empty strings $u,v$.
  5. Given any strings $a,b,c,d$ such that $a+b = c+d$, there is a string $x$ such that
    either ( $a+x = c$ and $b = x+d$ ) or ( $a = c+x$ and $x+b = d$ ).

It turns out that these five properties alone are sufficient to give rise to what is called the theory of concatenation, which is essentially incomplete but can already express very natural translations of statements about the halting behaviour of coded Turing machines on coded inputs. Therefore, the acceptance of meaningfulness of syntactic systems already commits you to accept something that already is strong enough to do basic arithmetic and yet is essentially incomplete. (Note that the phrase "essentially incomplete" is a technical term, not linguistic emphasis!)


But you also made numerous fundamental mistakes:

"Peano Arithmetic cannot prove itself consistent by the incompleteness theorem."

PA can prove the arithmetic statement Con(PA) if PA is itself inconsistent. Since you do not know whether PA is consistent, you cannot a priori exclude absolutely the possibility that PA proves itself consistent in this sense.

"So it requires some higher order theory."

Wrong again. PA+Con(PA) is a first-order theory that trivially proves the consistency of PA. In fact, one may not even need a strictly stronger system to prove the consistency of PA. For instance, just the theory with a single axiom Con(PA) would also do the job. Does it have meaning? No. But it serves to refute the claim that you need a stronger theory.

"That may prove Peano [Arithmetic] consistent, but that proof itself can only be relied upon if the higher order theorem is itself consistent. Which it in turn cannot prove itself."

Generously interpreted, this is vague but true, and is much more precisely stated as the essential incompleteness of PA (or just Robinson's Q). I have already mentioned to you a number of times before that you can see a complete proof of this fact here.

"It would appear therefore, by induction that Peano Arithmetic can never be proven consistent."

False. As proven in my linked post, there is no consistent useful formal system that interprets PA and proves itself consistent, where "useful" means "has a proof verifier" as defined in that post. This has nothing to do with induction. We can never prove that PA cannot be proven consistent, simply because we can easily do so in an inconsistent system, which for all we know PA itself might be.


Curiously though, PA itself is strong enough to prove Con(PA$_k$) where PA$_k$ is the fragment of PA that is PA$^-$ plus induction for $1$-parameter sentences with at most $k$ quantifiers, for every natural $k$ (in the meta-system). PA is simply unable to prove the universal sentence $\forall k\ ( \text{Con}(\text{PA}_k) )$ although it can prove every instantiation of it on a natural, so this is an example of the $ω$-incompleteness of PA that is simultaneously striking as a 'near-miss' of self-verified consistency.

user21820
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  • Thanks. Good point that incompleteness theorem depends on consistency. But of course if it did prove Con(PA) the question would be decided! Kyle also linked to Gentzen's proof which is no stronger than PA. Your last but one point appears to say any hope to prove PA consistent would require some theory which proves both itself and Peano consistent, which can never happen. I get that but I don't totally understand how that's different from mentioning induction. By "induction", I mean any consistent system can only be proved consistent by some "successor". – it's a hire car baby Mar 28 '17 at 19:29
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    @RobertFrost: By "induction" I meant the usual mathematical notion of induction. If you meant some other (philosophical?) notion, what I said may not apply. You see, what you might have been trying to say is that you need an infinite regress of systems, but if you try and precisely say what "need" here means, you would find that you can't. Furthermore, it is a red herring to look at a sequence of systems, since ultimately all of them must be handled by an ultimate overarching system, to which the incompleteness theorems apply. That's why induction is not relevant. – user21820 Mar 29 '17 at 11:48
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    @RobertFrost: Sorry I made a mistake in the axioms for the theory of concatenation, because I was trying to present a simpler version than in the linked paper. I noticed when looking at them more closely today. It should be fixed now. – user21820 Sep 30 '17 at 17:04