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I would like to develop a theory of cardinal numbers that relies on as weak a basis as possible. Therefore, I would like to know if there is a way to even define a cardinal number for every set without assuming Foundation or Choice. Thank you for your answers.

Asaf Karagila
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Daniel
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2 Answers2

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It turns out that in a precise sense the answer is no! Let $T$ be $ZF$ minus Foundation. Then there is a model $M$ of $T$ such that there is no definable function $f: M\rightarrow M$ (note that $f$ will be a class function) such that $$f(a)=f(b)\iff\mbox{ there is a bijection between $a$ and $b$.}$$ Thus, if we want "the cardinality of [thing]" to be appropriately definable, we either need a bit of Foundation, or Choice, or we need some other axiom not already present in ZFC.

See Andres Caicedo's answer to Scott's trick without the Axiom of Regularity.


Meanwhile, even in ZF, it is consistent that we cannot assign cardinality representatives: see Asaf Karagila's answer to Defining cardinality in the absence of choice.

Noah Schweber
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  • Note that the usual definition, "$\vert x\vert={y: \exists f: x\cong y}$" still works if you're willing for the cardinality of a set to be a proper class, or if you're working in something like NF where the class on the right is in fact a set. But I assume you're living in a ZFC-like world. – Noah Schweber Oct 31 '15 at 04:21
  • Another way, without Choice or Infinity, is ${y: R(y)=R(x)\wedge y\equiv x}$ where $R(x)$ is the rank of $x$. But with Infinity but not Choice, you cannot show that all sets are cardinally comparable, even those with the same rank. – DanielWainfleet Oct 31 '15 at 05:52
  • @user254665 The OP is focusing on foundation, not infinity. So your definition using rank (which is just Scott's trick, the standard approach to defining cardinality in the absence of choice) doesn't address the question, since without foundation sets cease to have ranks. – Noah Schweber Oct 31 '15 at 05:56
  • Thank you, Noah, this is precisely the answer I was looking for. Could you give me more details about this model you mention, or give me a link where I could read more about it? Also, the next question is what axioms could I impose over ZF — Foundation, which would be provable in ZFC and sufficient for defining cardinal numbers? Of course the most obvious choice would simply be to postulate the existence of cardinal numbers. But is there something more fundamental from which their existence would follow? – Daniel Oct 31 '15 at 09:00
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Well. The actual question is what you mean by developing cardinal arithmetic. This can be understood in several ways.

  1. You want to have a formula $\varphi_\sim(x,y)$ which is true if and only if there exists a bijection between $x$ and $y$, and a formula $\varphi_+(x,y,z)$ which is true if and only if there exists a bijection between $x\times\{0\}\cup y\times\{1\}$ and $z$; and similarly for multiplication.

    This setting gives you very rudimentary cardinal arithmetics, and you can probably get them from a very weak fragment of $\sf ZF$ which certainly does not include choice or foundations.

  2. You want to have a definable class of sets, $\Gamma$ with definable $\sim,\leq,+,\cdot$ class relation and operators on $\Gamma$, such that for every $x$ in the universe you can identify a unique $\gamma_x\in\Gamma$, and whenever there is an injection from $x$ into $y$, then $\gamma_x\leq\gamma_y$, and so on.

    For this you can do with choice and without foundations (using ordinals), or with foundations and without choice (using Scott's trick). But if you give up both, it's not at all clear how you can do it. It is possible to resort into "local" versions, so you can extend the rudimentary definitions from the previous case to "set many at a time", but in order to ensure it works, I don't know if you can give up on too many instances of replacement and separation. Because "set many at a time" means that you need stronger axioms if your sets are more complicated in some way.

  3. You could argue that cardinal arithmetic involves cardinal representatives. Namely, you want a class of sets $\Gamma$, again with $\sim,\leq,+,\cdot$ such that this time $\gamma_x$ has a bijection with $x$. So if in the previous meaning $\gamma_x$ was allowed to be some random set, this time we require that it will actually be of the same cardinality of $x$.

    This requires both foundations and some choice. Namely, without either one you can't really talk about $\Gamma$ as I pointed out above, and without some sort of choice you cannot choose a $\gamma_x$ from each equivalence class in the relation defined by "there is a bijection between the two sets". You do not need the full power of the axiom of choice here, but there is no "nice" choice principle to guarantee you this choice of representatives.

Let me finish by saying something about the axiom of foundations. You can talk about $\sf ZFA$ (set theory with atoms) as being a two-sorted theory, or $\sf ZF$ with weaken extensionality, or $\sf ZF$ with weakened regularity (your atoms will be sets of the form $x=\{x\}$). If we consider the last version, then one can claim that foundations is not needed since you can effectively run Scott's trick in $\sf ZFA$.

So in all the instances of foundations that I refer to, I really mean that there is some set $A$ that using iteration of power sets and unions you obtain the entire universe from $A$.

Asaf Karagila
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  • Firstly, thanks a lot for your answer! I honestly thought I would never get an answer to my question, so this is a very pleasant surprise to me. This community is truly wonderful. Secondly, what exactly I meant by a cardinal number. I will be more explicit: having formulas like the ones you mention in (1) is extremely unsatisfactory because I feel that a cardinal number should be, in some sense, a "thing", but formulas do not seem to be "things" per se, rather they express properties of things, so that would not count. (continues in the next comment) – Daniel Oct 31 '15 at 08:48
  • On the other hand, it is certainly not a requirement that the cardinal of x should be in a bijection with x. The only requirement is that it should be a set and satisfy the property that card(A) = card(B) iff there is a one-to-one function from A onto B. Also, at least finite sums and products and exponents should be well-defined (but I think this part is trivial). The important part is that to each class of equipotent sets there should be assigned a well-defined set. So more in the spirit of 2, although I am unsure about your use of the word definable.(continues in the next comment) – Daniel Oct 31 '15 at 08:55
  • If all you mean is that there should be formulas in the language of set theory expressing those things (and of course that ZF proves that they have the right behavior) then yes, but I do not require any special property of those formulas (such as, for instance, being of a certain complexity). – Daniel Oct 31 '15 at 08:57
  • The reason definbaility rears its head is that classes are just interpretations of formulas. If you want to be able to literally assign a set $x$ its cardinal, this means that you need some sort of uniform way to define from $x$ what is the cardinal of $x$. This exactly means that this is a definable collection. If you don't want to do that, then you essentially resort back to the first interpretation of the question, where you really work in the meta-theory with the equivalence classes of the "there is a bijection" relation, and you can pull that back into the theory finitely many at a time. – Asaf Karagila Oct 31 '15 at 09:00