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I am a young theoretical physicist who's currently enrolled in his final year of masters studies and I've started searching for doctoral programs.

I've started applying to PhD programs which have a starting date after my graduation date. So far, I've gotten zero positive feedback which is disheartening to say the least - during the entire course of my studies, I've only ever had one grade which wasn't an "A" and I also participated in several workshops and even held two talks at different occasions.

I can't help shake the feeling that it's due to me coming from a relatively poor European country where there's five serious researchers in theoretical physics in total, one of them being my thesis advisor. As much as I love working with him, I am "afraid" that I'll get stuck in this country (not an issue) doing bad and irrelevant work (definitely an issue). I don't see anyone pushing any boundaries. I wouldn't be asking this question if I didn't hear multiple stories of and by people who decided to pursue a PhD here and either abandoned academia or are now just treating it as any old job, with zero interest or motivation. I live for this. I want to pursue, explore and uncover.

Can I hope that if I don't find a PhD within a year or two somewhere else, that I'll be able to do so with a Postdoc some 5 years from now? Are the criteria for post doctoral study even "stricter", or are PhD students "filtered out" and it becomes easier to end up somewhere prestigious?

Please refrain from motivational talk about how I can definitely find a PhD in a prestigious university if I push hard enough - I know this to be not true from almost first hand experience (unless you're an absolute born-once-every-1000-years-genius, but then one wouldn't even be asking this question).

How hard is it to get a "prestigious" Postdoc after a "mediocre" PhD?

Anxious Tortoise
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    I think you are currently in a Master’s program, and are looking at PhD programs right now. But it sounds like your question is about the transition from PhD to Post-Doc. Is this correct? It is a bit unclear in the text. – Dawn Jan 13 '21 at 18:44
  • Sorry for the misunderstandings! @BryanKrause Final year of graduate studies means "final year of masters program" - probably a mistake on my part, the two mean the same in my mother tongue. It is perfectly normal to not publish a thing during this time, as far as I'm aware. – Anxious Tortoise Jan 13 '21 at 18:52
  • @Dawn Yes - I am trying to find a PhD, but since my fate seems to be predetermined somewhat, I am also trying my hardest to think ahead and prepare myself for a Post-Doc. Naive and ambitious? Maybe. But I know I want it. – Anxious Tortoise Jan 13 '21 at 18:52
  • Do you have a specific country in mind for your PhD? Europe is quite diverse as to how PhD students are "handled", so you might get a better answer if you were more specific. Are you aiming at European countries at all? – Snijderfrey Jan 13 '21 at 18:54
  • @Snijderfrey The countries I've tried to apply for PhDs so far (with zero luck) are Germany, Austria, Italy, the Netherlands, Denmark, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland and Russia. I'd say there were 20-ish applications I sent during this year. The closest I got was getting to the "next part of the elimination process" in one of the lower ranking Universities but got notified of not passing further along the chain a week later. At least five places notified me that "regretfully, they won't be accepting my application" after less than a week. Some never answered. – Anxious Tortoise Jan 13 '21 at 18:58
  • @AnxiousTortoise Thanks; I've clarified in your question and added some paragraph breaks to hopefully make it easier to read. – Bryan Krause Jan 13 '21 at 18:59
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    How hard is it to get a "prestigious" Postdoc after a "great" PhD? Hard. Very hard. – Buffy Jan 13 '21 at 19:19
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    Please clarify the first sentence of paragraph 4 – Dawn Jan 13 '21 at 19:39
  • Possible duplicate: University rank/stature - How much does it affect one's career post-Ph.D? – cag51 Jan 13 '21 at 20:16
  • @Buffy I disagree. – user151413 Jan 13 '21 at 20:58
  • @AnxiousTortoise After a mediocre PhD, or after a PhD in a mediocre place? – user151413 Jan 13 '21 at 20:59
  • @user151413 After a PhD in a mediocre place. I intend to pour every fiber of my being into writing my thesis, whatever it may be. – Anxious Tortoise Jan 13 '21 at 21:41
  • @Dawn What I meant was, if I don't manage to get a PhD in a foreign country and do end up where I've been for the last couple of years, how difficult will it be to get a Post-Doc in some foreign country/institute? A random example from the top of my head, but will I be able to successfully apply to somewhere like Lomonosov Moscow State University? – Anxious Tortoise Jan 13 '21 at 21:47
  • @AnxiousTortoise The thesis does not matter so much (though it does to some extent). What matters much more is that you have written good publications (the quality matters much more than the number) during that time, ideally on topics which the people you apply with can judge. Note that if you have written a very good paper on topic X together with your supervisor, who is not known to be an expert on X (or not known to be a top scientist), this might well count in your favor, since it very much suggests that this is both your idea and work. – user151413 Jan 13 '21 at 21:51

4 Answers4

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The most important is not really where you do your PhD but rather if you can publish some quality research papers during your PhD. I have a few post-doctoral researchers in my team, and I have hired them because they are somewhat close to my research area but mostly because they have shown that they can write and publish good papers during their PhD. This give me confidence that they will also do good research in my team as post-doctoral researcher. Thus, my recommendation is that if you choose to stay in your country, work hard to publish in top journals/conferences in your field, and also have international collaborations. If you have good papers, then people will recognize your research ability.

Phil
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I think it would be wise to take one step at a time, and the next would be to secure a satisfying position as a PhD student. You seem to be willing to move and are also open for different countries. That is definitely a plus and your general approach makes sense as far as I can tell.

I am not sure what you mean by "PhD program". To me that sounds as if you were not contacting researchers directly. In my experience (from the natural sciences mainly, and in Germany) it is not uncommon that PhD students are hired after some personal contact with a potential supervisor without passing any official selection process. Often, positions are not even advertised and supervisors use their personal network to find PhD students. I do not doubt that you face some bias concerning your home country, but if you manage to find a way to some personal correspondence with a potential supervisor the bias might be less of an issue. Your supervisor might be able and willing to support you. Is he/she on a friendly basis with a potential supervisor? Then he/she could facilitate contact.

Snijderfrey
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  • While this might be good advice, it does not answer the question. – user151413 Jan 13 '21 at 21:01
  • The reason why I specified "PhD programs" is because contacting professors directly has resulted in constant failure so far and it hits even harder when you know that the rejection was written personally by someone rather than an automated machine that sent out 200 rejection mails, all of which start with "Dear applicant". The reason why I think that I will not be contacting them individually anymore and why I fear I'll get stuck in my country is because my friend went through the exact same (with the exact grade average) and all he got for 2 years straight were rejection letters. – Anxious Tortoise Jan 13 '21 at 21:50
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    Sorry to hear that. Did you get help from your supervisor or anybody else with a good network in the field? I can imagine it is rather hopeless to write to professors yourself. And @user151413 is right, I wasn't strictly answering your question... – Snijderfrey Jan 13 '21 at 22:05
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    "take it one step at a time" is really bad advice. Do not get a PhD without a plan for after your PhD. – Anonymous Physicist Jan 13 '21 at 23:09
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    I think you absolutely have to get better advice about your materials and approach to faculty. If you are a promising candidate you might still be getting a terrible response if your materials are not good. I have good students who write terrible PhD applications because they have no idea what faculty are looking for. How many people (preferably faculty) have you gone over your materials with? – Dawn Jan 14 '21 at 03:55
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I know it may sound a bit crazy, but is it not an option for you to pursue a second master's in a foreign university and then apply from there for a phd? There are even some programs, where the master's takes only 1 year (I have heard about it in Germany). You could work as an intern at a lab during that time and could continue your phd at that lab.

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    This might be useful advice, but it doesn't answer the question. – user151413 Jan 13 '21 at 21:00
  • Would I even be able to get a "second" degree if it's in the same field? And would this work for something broad like theoretical physics? Does a Post-Doc equivalent exist? Instead of applying for a Post-Doc, I get a second PhD from a place and then aim for a Post-Doc at that same institution? – Anxious Tortoise Jan 13 '21 at 21:51
  • No-one at a good institution who is clear in their mind would hire you for a PhD after you already did a PhD in the same field, unless you can make a very compelling point about that. In fact, at least in places where PhDs get paid reasonable salaries, the risk is much lower to hire someone as a postdoc. – user151413 Jan 13 '21 at 21:54
  • @user151413 "In fact, at least in places where PhDs get paid reasonable salaries, the risk is much lower to hire someone as a postdoc." What do you mean? – Anxious Tortoise Jan 13 '21 at 22:00
  • @AnxiousTortoise If I hire a PhD, I pay them amount X per year. The PhD student will be there for ~4 years. On the other hand, if I hire a postdoc, I pay them, say, 1.5*X, but they will be around for maybe 2 years. This is clearly a lower financial risk. Moreover, if I hire a mediocre PhD student, it might well be seen as my responsibility to get them graduated; especially if I'm not tenured, this might be a real issue. If I hire a mediocre postdoc, there is no such risk. Finally, it is much easier to judge postdoc applicants as compared to PhD applicants, since they have publications. – user151413 Jan 13 '21 at 22:02
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    @user151413 Thank you for the clarification.

    The bottom line seems to be that I don't have to despair over potentially staying in my country - I'll just do my best to publish the best articles the world has ever laid eyes on and I'll secure a good Post-Doc position with that. Many thanks!

     – Anxious Tortoise Jan 13 '21 at 22:07
  • @AnxiousTortoise Do be sure to have some sort of backup plan, or at least be ready to know that your primary plans may not work out. It's hard for everyone to advance in academia, especially in areas with little funding. – Bryan Krause Jan 13 '21 at 23:33
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Are the criteria for post doctoral study even "stricter"

The criteria for getting a postdoctoral position are not important. People who hire postdocs generally have to spend the money by a deadline. If they do not hire someone, they might have to return the money. They hire the best person they can, not every person who is qualified. The number of qualified people is always larger than the number of positions.

How hard is it?

There is stiff competition for jobs. Most physics PhDs do not get postdoc jobs. Many get industry jobs, which are often higher paying.

https://www.aip.org/statistics/reports/employment-and-careers-physics

Other fields have even more competition.

Competition is based on how many papers you have published that are relevant to the job. Generally jobs are easier to find if your research is in experiment or in a topic currently popular with industry.

Anonymous Physicist
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