171

While I was browsing faculty websites, I came across this page (new link: http://www.pdmi.ras.ru/~iaroslav/teaching.php?screen_check=done&Width=360&Height=640). Near the bottom there is a section called Top 6 Most Stupid Questions & Remarks That I'he Heard from my Students where one can find a question and the first name (followed by one letter) of the student who asked it! Screenshot

Just in case the page is eventually taken down here it is on archive.org

cag51
  • 67,924
  • 25
  • 181
  • 247
SomeOne
  • 1,247
  • 2
  • 8
  • 6
  • 1
    Please take any discussion as to whether this question should be closed or not to the respective Meta post. Please only post further comments if you think they have a chance of improving this question or similar. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. Take any other discussion to chat. – Wrzlprmft Dec 12 '18 at 13:43

7 Answers7

401

No. This is completely unacceptable. Sometimes faculty rant on social media and email lists where they do not think students will see the comments. Even this is frowned upon if the student could realize it is them being made fun of. It is completely inappropriate to make fun of students on a public website with students names.

StrongBad
  • 104,237
  • 30
  • 262
  • 484
  • 160
    It is completely inappropriate to make fun of students on a public website, regardless of whether it includes student names or not. – Gimelist Dec 03 '18 at 07:45
  • 1
    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – ff524 Dec 04 '18 at 20:45
  • Does the same apply to ex-students? There is nothing in the material quoted which rules out the possibility that all of the students quoted have graduated or otherwise left the institution. – James Martin Dec 09 '18 at 14:30
  • @JamesMartin ask in chat and I will happily give you an answer. – StrongBad Dec 09 '18 at 14:47
  • 8
    I find it completely inappropriate to make fun of people trying to learn - full stop. I'd say calling that page "teaching.php" is really misleading. – mgarciaisaia Dec 10 '18 at 15:14
  • I think making fun of students who are that stupid is entirely acceptable; it may even be required to maintain sanity. I suppose this difference in judgement is partly related to a difference in American vs. European attitudes. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Dec 10 '18 at 17:01
  • 3
    @PeterA.Schneider Mockery hinders innovation. Good luck. – sean Dec 11 '18 at 11:57
  • 1
    @sean The quotes are not from brainstorming sessions or other types of explorative discourse; they were exam answers or questions during lectures which betrayed that the students did not invest the least effort in their studies. They failed their parents, their teachers, their fellow students and themselves, wasting everybody's time and occupying valuable, limited resources. The quotes have nothing to do with innovation whatsoever. The mockery (and side notes like "what shame!") is, as I understand, intended as both a frustration vent and wakeup call. Both are necessary. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Dec 11 '18 at 12:26
  • 3
    @PeterA.Schneider "...which betrayed that the students did not invest the least effort in their studies". What a retarded assumption. There are multiple possible reasons why a student may have failed, and absolutely none of them are justification for a teacher who is being paid to teach to abuse a student who is paying to learn... but then going through the rest of your answers shows that you probably have a deep-seated problem of abysmal reasoning anyway. I'd suggest going back to school and taking a critical thinking class, Peter. – Hashim Aziz Dec 12 '18 at 07:03
  • @Hashim The answers and questions which I can understand leave "no effort invested" as the most plausible explanation, unless we suppose insufficient cognitive abilities. Of course it's possible that the reason for the lack of effort is not laziness but some extraneous situation which kept the student from learning -- but Occam's razor makes "did not learn" the assumption of choice. Note that for exams, circumstances like "mother died", "needed to work for a living, couldn't study" etc. should be mentioned to the teacher. No teacher would make fun of that. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Dec 12 '18 at 07:16
  • @Hashim As an aside, we try to avoid judgements like "retarded" in conversation on stackexchange. Another aside is that while I sometimes feel like provoking somebody who is too goody-two-shoes out of their bubble, I still like my answers, including the downvoted one, after just having reviewed them. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Dec 12 '18 at 07:30
  • @Hashim Another aside is that while I couldn't find information about that particular school, tuition often seems to be more like an administrative fee for most institutions (a few hundred dollars per year). That is indeed one factor which sets American and public European colleges apart: In America the students are paying customers who correctly have a certain sense of entitlement but are also under economic stress to be efficient. Both is not so clearly the case with many European students. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Dec 12 '18 at 07:52
  • 3
    @PeterASchneider: You are joking, right?! The mockery is necessary??!! "making fun of students who are that stupid is entirely acceptable"????! – Haque Dec 17 '18 at 23:36
  • 3
    @PeterA.Schneider: in case you are not joking: every teacher who needs to mock their students as a frustration vent does not belong in the teaching profession. – Haque Dec 18 '18 at 21:48
  • @Haque No, I was not joking. The questions and answers of the students were insulting the teacher. To be that unprepared is showing a couple of things: A lack of respect for the teacher; a lack of self-respect; an utter lack of effort, obviously; a chuzpe which does not go well with the performance. The cognitive dissonance of chuzpe together with this blatant intellectual disrobement is exposing the students to ridicule, entirely at their own fault. – Peter - Reinstate Monica Dec 18 '18 at 23:09
  • 2
    @PeterASchneider: Horrible. A student who does not know something deserves to not pass, not to be ridiculed on the Internet. – User Sep 24 '19 at 17:39
220

In addition to StrongBad's answer, this kind of behavior would also discourage students from asking questions in fear of finding themselves on the “stupid questions and answers” list. Given that “unacceptable” wasn’t defined further in the original question, I think this is also an important aspect that makes this sort of student shaming unacceptable. Except if the Professor doesn’t actually want any questions asked of course :-)

I'd like to add that additionally, I don't think posting photos of test answers online (like this specific professor did) is ethical or even legal. According to this website (archive link), handwriting is personal data according to the EUs GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation) and can almost certainly not be published without permission.

Marv
  • 1,449
  • 1
  • 6
  • 11
  • 60
    I think this is an important answer, as it highlights that the consequences of riddiculing students for their answers is more far-reaching than just affecting the riddiculed students. As teachers, we should be encouraging the students to ask questions, not trying to deter them from it. Sure, everynow and then we will get a question that might seem "trivial", but I'd much rather have that than not getting questions at all. – Phil Dec 03 '18 at 09:16
  • 41
    https://xkcd.com/1053/ – BurnsBA Dec 03 '18 at 14:43
  • 19
    Yup to all of this. I can almost guarantee that for every student with the courage to ask a "stupid question" there are half a dozen more who are keeping quiet and waiting for somebody else to ask. – GB supports the mod strike Dec 03 '18 at 23:09
  • Better link for whether handwriting is personal data since it deals with pretty much exactly this issue and references the court case. – Voo Dec 10 '18 at 15:59
78

It's not only that such ridiculing is absolutely unacceptable and counterproductive (as others mentioned already) but it also puts the academic themselves in a kind of bad light as a lecturer/teacher. If my third year math/engineering students didn't know what the cotangent is I would consider it much more of my own fault rather than theirs.

And most importantly, one shouldn't be embarrassed of not knowing something but of not wanting to get to know it. Most people don't even bother to ask a question even being proud of their ignorance sometimes. So I believe that no curiosity should be frowned upon.

UPDATE: Having said the above, it could still be considered a good attitude for a student to come up with some answer themselves (i.e. do some research/thinking) prior to asking their professor a question.

ayorgo
  • 1,470
  • 7
  • 9
  • 20
    +1 for putting the onus back on the lecturer for the student lack of knowledge. I also like your point about "no curiosity should be frowned upon". I've got a friend who has been teaching in another part of the world for a number of years. He's run into an interesting cultural issue, where the students are bought up to accept things without questioning anything. Obviously this can cause some big problems. Imagine having students who don't question any basic assumptions, ever. They're good at learning things as rote, but cannot handle problems outside of exactly what they've been taught. – Doctor Jones Dec 03 '18 at 12:14
  • 4
    This echoes my thoughts, except that I'd add it's either my fault, or else the collective fault of the institutional program. (Maybe it's something that should have been taught in a prerequisite, but it wasn't taught well.) "Despite the extreme simplicity of this question, many students did not respond correctly" – that sounds like an indictment on the professor! Also, a note on your update: That might not apply in the middle of a lecture, when I've just mentioned something, so there's no time for a student to do the research. – J.R. Dec 03 '18 at 15:24
  • 7
    Blaming the professor or "system" makes sense if every student does not know basic facts. But most students will, the dumb questions come from a select few. Also engineering students generally need to cover trig (and more) in high school. – A Simple Algorithm Dec 03 '18 at 17:54
  • 1
    @A Simple Algorithm still the professor/system's fault. No student should get to the 3rd year not knowing the basics either by being taught appropriately or by being kicked out of the establishment. – ayorgo Dec 03 '18 at 18:04
  • 7
    @ASimpleAlgorithm - From the OP's graphic: What is a decibel? – several 4th-year students. If several 4th-year students don't know what a decibel is, and the professor feels like that's a "Most Stupid Question," then it might be time to take a hard look at the curriculum. And "covering trig in high school" doesn't mean everyone has what they learned three years ago locked into short-term memory. – J.R. Dec 03 '18 at 18:13
  • 1
    @J.R.Yes the "Several" students in that quote comprise a select few. Confused? I feel like you're cherry-picking to be argumentative. A decibel is a pretty sophisticated concept though, so I actually don't consider that one particularly dumb. I have students who can't do high-school math and can barely write coherently. And they are from all over the world so blame the whole world, I guess. To paraphrase Chris Rock, whatever happened to just dumb? – A Simple Algorithm Dec 03 '18 at 19:13
  • 1
    @ayorgo I certainly agree many schools admit, pass, and graduate many students they should not. Generally it seems a 3.0 or somewhere above there is the real cutoff between learning and not. But students can still advance with grades below that. – A Simple Algorithm Dec 03 '18 at 19:43
  • If a student got into college without knowing what a cot is, then the Admissions Dept screwed up. Stop thinking the lecturer is responsible for hand-holding the entire class. – Carl Witthoft Dec 04 '18 at 14:16
  • 1
    @CarlWitthoft If the Admissions Dept screwed up, the Professor should discuss this with them, but not ridicule the students. – Arsak Dec 12 '18 at 08:45
  • @Marzipanherz you are missing the message: Admissions is letting completely incompetent people into the college. Granted, every college lets such types in because (a) they play some sport or (b) their daddy is a rich alumnus; that doesn't mean it's a good thing. Some more dedicated schools run evaluation exams on incoming frosh of dubious capability (for whatever reason) and provide remedial coursework as necessary. – Carl Witthoft Dec 12 '18 at 12:33
20

This is a bad taste, for sure (IMHO), but since there are plenty of websites where students are more than welcome to tell anything they want about their professors with full names etc., I guess this may be viewed as a kind of "symmetric response". I'm pretty much against internet trashing of anybody (usually it does more bad than good for all parties involved) but, alas, it has became a pretty common culture nowadays, so I am not surprised that some professors resort to it too.

As to the questions listed, they do not show stupidity, just utter ignorance, so I personally would object more to calling them "stupid questions" than to listing the student names. If a third year student asks me what a geometric progression is, I just answer with a definition and an example and consider the case closed. Moreover, I can openly announce that at the moment of this writing I don't remember what exactly a decibel is myself. All I remember is that it is a unit of measure of sound intensity and that the scale is logarithmic. If the student is not able to process an answer appropriately, it is, of course, a completely different story, but if one just doesn't know something, there is no shame in asking.

This means that I would neither call such questions stupid, nor list the names myself and would, probably, discourage my friends from doing so, but I wouldn't cry out loud "Unforgivable crime!" or "Unethical behavior!" if I see somebody else doing it either. For me it is bad taste, period.

That was the "common sense" part. As to the legal part, it is country dependent and I'm not really familiar enough with the European laws to discuss the corresponding subtleties.

fedja
  • 10,807
  • 24
  • 45
  • 17
    "They did it first" is not an acceptable defense, especially when it's likely that the "they" in this case have nothing to do with the "it." – fluffy Dec 05 '18 at 04:07
  • 28
    -1 There is an enormous power imbalance between lecturers and their students. As a result, for a student to complain about a lecturer is often petty and immature, but for a lecturer to publicly complain about individual students by name is always abusive. This is not, as you claim, a "symmetric response." – Kevin Dec 05 '18 at 18:35
  • 5
    -1 Also, teachers are paid to teach students and answer questions. What if a restaurant publishes a list of "things stupid customers do"? Students are obliged to abide by a set of rules indeed, but "no stupid questions" is not one of them. Asking what cotangent is would embarrass the student badly and perhaps signal that the student shouldn't have been there, but it is not a "wrong" thing to do. In fact, the student is being responsible to themself, as they asked questions when they do not understand. – xuq01 Dec 05 '18 at 21:28
  • 1
    If you provide a service, it's only fair that people rate your service. I'm sorry that young adults can be impolite, but using that as justification to rate your customers on their intelligence seems like quite a stretch. If a private sector employee did that, it wouldn't be "bad taste", it would be "reason for termination" – Clay07g Dec 06 '18 at 23:52
  • 5
    @Clay07g I don't "provide service". I pass the knowledge I possess and try to raise people who will continue the craft after my death. If somebody wants to rate me, he should be not any worse craftsman than I am (at least by the formal criteria). Peer review is fine with me and I welcome it any time. It is evaluations by totally incompetent people that are irritating. – fedja Dec 07 '18 at 00:52
  • 7
    @fedja You seem to be confused. People want education so that they can form a career. They (or the government) pays other people for that education. So, unless you're not being paid, then you're providing a service, by the literal definition. Also, I find your notion's about ratings delusional. A student does not need to be an expert in Physics to know that their science professor is bad at teaching others. If you want to "pass on the knowledge you possess", do it for free. Otherwise, offer your services for money, and be subject to those who want to be informed before spending money. – Clay07g Dec 07 '18 at 02:44
  • 3
    @Clay07g I'm doing it for free whenever I have a chance. As to being paid, I agree that my employer can terminate my contract if it finds necessary to do so (so far they prefer not to). However I maintain that students are typically not qualified to evaluate their professors in any meaningful way before they master at least the subject that is being taught and that student evaluations in the form they are practiced nowadays create more harm than good for the education. I admit that our points of view on what the goal of teaching is are different, but it is OK. – fedja Dec 07 '18 at 03:26
  • 3
    Fedja, why are you even talking so much about students rating their professors? That’s completely unrelated to the question at hand. As for the shaming of students being discussed, the reason it’s unacceptable is that the professor is blatantly acting against the interests of his students - both the specific ones he is making fun of, and future students who are likely to be intimidated by the shaming into asking fewer questions when they take his class. It‘s unacceptable for someone who has chosen the noble job of teaching to wilfully act in a way that so blatantly sabotages that same job. – Dan Romik Dec 07 '18 at 09:35
  • 5
    @xuq01 There are lists where employees rant about customers, and it's a fun read. Yet the important part is that it's fully anonymous, for entertainment or insight into the daily life of said jobs, not to trash a particular person, which doesn't apply here. – Frank Hopkins Dec 07 '18 at 14:01
  • @Darkwing Indeed. The restaurant equivalent for this would be "customer John Smith wanted a spoon because he can't use chopsticks properly. So funny!" Which does not sound amusing at all and just tells me the person posting it is a horrible person. – xuq01 Dec 07 '18 at 19:50
  • 2
    A symmetric response is not appropriate in an asymmetric relationship. Confidentiality often goes only one way. I have every right to tell people if I have a problem with how my doctor is treating me, but they have no right to tell the public about my medical history. – Acccumulation Dec 07 '18 at 23:37
  • There is a difference between punching up and punching down. – sean Dec 11 '18 at 12:15
  • Horrible answer. – User Sep 24 '19 at 17:41
16

Not only the ethic behind this is very doubtful as StrongBad said, but this is also probably illegal under the loi informatique et liberté & the GDPR because it falls under the definition of "Donnée Personnelle" (see the CNIL definition). If someone decide to warn the CNIL about this page, it could put the university and the teacher at risk.

Maeln
  • 261
  • 1
  • 4
  • 2
    Accordingly to CNIL site the first name (le prénom) is not a personal data. – Mark S. Dec 04 '18 at 12:17
  • 11
    "Nom" is a catch all word. I can mean the familly name or a full name. In anycase, you have to add to this that the university of the student and the year they were in is also mentioned which would make it trivial to identify the student. How many "Mathieu C." in ISITV had Iaroslav Blagouchine has a teacher in 3rd Year in the Higher Mathematics class ? – Maeln Dec 04 '18 at 12:23
  • 15
    Because personal data are any information that identify someone directly or indirectly. Here the mention of the university name and the year they were in (plus the teacher name and the name of the class) would be considered indirect personal data when mixed with a mention of their (not full) name. – Maeln Dec 04 '18 at 12:24
  • I don't know how many students Iaroslav Blagouchine had in ISITV, but 1) this information is not public and is not accessible for others 2) I am teacher and have about 250 students each year. So if he works there during, say, 10 years he have 2500 students, of which at least 1/4 with common first names, which were published on his WEB-sites. So I don't think that you can easily identify them. Note also that the year when that happened is not specified.. – Mark S. Dec 05 '18 at 08:49
  • 3
    @MarkS. I don't disagree with you (although getting a students list through alumini network is usually fairly easy), but it doesn't matter what we think. If the CNIL decide that this is personal data and if there is no trace that student gave explicit consent to appear in this list, then it is illegal. – Maeln Dec 05 '18 at 09:36
  • 4
    @MarkS. yeah, lucky students who were given common first names at birth. But if your first name is Robinson or Zeus or Orion or Kami or Iaroslav, then you're out of luck? – Cœur Dec 11 '18 at 05:05
  • @MarkS. the information is not available to many people.... but anyone in this university knows it. You have 250 students each year, and your 250 know at least a little. They probably have a facebook or whatsapp group to share data if they are at least a little organized. That's more than enough people to understand who is who from the teacher's website. Once just one people know, the information is definitely leaked. I have 0 doubt this is illegal in my country, which does not take lightly confidentiality issues. There's a good reason why serious companies pays millions to protect their data – Kaël Dec 14 '18 at 10:34
8

As has been said in prior answers, it is NEVER acceptable to make fun of students or otherwise say or do something that could prevent them from learning.

Many sites on the Stack Exchange network would not be the same without “stupid questions” and you could view students asking them in the same way. Even if it seems utterly ridiculous to you, the student likely is honestly wondering about it and laughing at their questions somewhere where they could potentially see them could encourage them to not ask questions for fear of being laughed at. Students who hold their questions for this reason often never get them answered and as a result earn a lower grade.

dalearn
  • 386
  • 3
  • 11
2

1) First of all, it seems that the leading question of the discussion "Is it acceptable to publish student names with the label stupid question?" is not correctly formulated. A part of the the question contains a statement which is actually faulty: the names of the students are not revealed, only the first names are mentioned, which are all very common ones. The format like Donald T. or Emmanuel M. does not permit to identify the person, so that the anonymity is fully kept (hence, GDPR has nothing to do with this). Moreover, such a format of names is usual in classic literature. Actually, to name the person only with her/his first name means precisely that you do not want to reveal the identity of the person.

2) I don't think that the objective was to ridicule the students, but rather to make them attend more or/and to make them understand that they are simply too lazy (since they do not recall even basic notions). In engineering schools, as was remarked earlier by @A Simple Algorithm, students should have at least basic notions of the trigonometry (the trigonometry is usually covered in high school before the university), because it is used throughout all the university curriculum. Same remark concerns decibels: this is a very basic notion, which is covered during the 1st year of studies. So (@J.R.) nobody mocks. After all, it ain’t funny to have students with such a poor level.

3) In France, the higher education is free, so that it is easily accessible even for the lazy students. Don't you think about those students from other countries, who have a talent and would like to study, but can't do this because their parents can't pay??

4) Also, I don’t understand why it is acceptable to widely rank teachers and professors on the Web sites, and why it is not acceptable to do the same with the students (thought on this Web site the rank of the students is not published)? And on the Web sites, the professors are fully named, not as Antoine W. or Sven F. So strangely, nobody thinks about GDPR or FERPA for the professors and teachers.

UPD: the initial question was modified so that now it is clear that the actual names are not revealed on the website in question.

Mark S.
  • 159
  • 2
  • 19
  • A name in the pattern of Rashad Gabriel B.–K. (changed for privacy) is distinguishable enough. 2) This behavior makes me want to stay away from class instead of attend. Also I'd rather have a few stupid questions than none at all because students are to afraid to ask. 3) Yes, free education might attract/support more lazy students, but they don't prevent other countries from offering free education. 4) Bit of a Whataboutism, this is a different topic. One might argue that professors are public figures, though the ethics of ranking them are a different topic.
    • – Marv Dec 03 '18 at 21:58
  • @Marv 1) In your example - perhaps yes, but the format given in this WEB-site is too short and does not permit to identify the student. In France, the name of a person is composed of 3 parts, e.g. Pierre Laurent Dubois. If one writes Pierre D. or Pierre L. it cannot be related to Pierre Laurent Dubois... 2) The students should also do some research and preparation prior to go to the university or engineering school (in such a case it's the problem related to the system, not to the professor) 4) Professors and teacher assistants are not PEPs, they are exactly as their students: equal in rights. – Mark S. Dec 03 '18 at 23:36
  • 3
  • I've taken the pattern straight from the website, see the third point there. And even then, the professor published handwriting which also seems to be protected by GDPR, see my answer. 2) Yes, they should do their research. But as others have said, it might not even be the students fault that they don't know, but the institutions. Also, as I said, if "stupid" questions are the price to pay for people not to be afraid to ask questions, I'll gladly pay. 4) Perhaps, but as I said, that's a different topic entirely. This question is about a professor publishing students personal data.
    • – Marv Dec 04 '18 at 08:02
  • 26
    "I don't think that the objective was to ridiculize the students" – "Top 6 Most Stupid Questions" in bold letters including actual names. Really? – dasdingonesin Dec 04 '18 at 10:28
  • 3
    @dasdingonesin The actual names are not revealed, please, read the post. It's like recounting a funny anecdote about a nonspecific friend (see a post by @NicHartley). Also, the trig is a part of basic school program in France, it's not normal that a 3rd year university student doesn't know what the cotangent is. – Mark S. Dec 04 '18 at 11:47
  • 32
    It's strange that the author of this answer believes that the first-name-last-initial format is adequately anonymous, yet chose as his handle "Mark S." and not "Iaroslav B." – Will Dec 04 '18 at 11:48
  • 1
    @Marv I am sorry, but students deliberately take photos of professors' handwritings and post them everywhere on the web. It is strange that nobody never speaks about this. – Mark S. Dec 04 '18 at 11:54
  • 7
    @MarkS. If a professor sees you taking pictures and doesn't say anything, he most likely doesn't care. If he sees it and tells you to stop and you keep taking pictures, or if you do it without him noticing, then you already know you might be doing something that's not okay. But again, this is a Whataboutism. This thread is about professors publishing personal data of students and students doing the same to professors doesn't make it okay. Your argumenting with "an eye for an eye" logic. – Marv Dec 04 '18 at 12:06
  • 7
    "The format like Donald T. or Emmanuel M. does not permit to identify the person" - this is not a safe assumption. For example, it's easy to guess that you were using Donald Trump and Emmanuel Macron for that example. – GB supports the mod strike Dec 04 '18 at 22:07
  • 7
    @Geoffrey Brent ...well, actually I meant Donald Tusk and Emmanuel Moire. You see how wrong you are? – Mark S. Dec 05 '18 at 08:54
  • 1
    @MarkS "If a professor sees you taking pictures and doesn't say anything, he most likely doesn't care". A professor/teacher is working and has 30 students in front of him. When he is writing or explaining something, he simply can't see what the students are doing... they are 30! Don't this simple idea cross you mind? – Mark S. Dec 05 '18 at 08:59
  • 1
    @MarkS. Read the rest of the comment as well... „If he sees it and tells you to stop and you keep taking pictures, or if you do it without him noticing, the you already know you might be doing something that’s not ok.“ And it’s still not relevant. – Marv Dec 05 '18 at 09:14
  • 18
  • "First name - Last initial" isn't the only information being shared. We're also given their university, the fact that they've had this professor, and which year they had him in. That's a tiny pool of people. 2) Objective is irrelevant against results. This is ridicule - plain and simple; it doesn't matter if the professor didn't intend it that way, and this also discourages asking any question out of fear it might be "dumb". 3) This just makes no sense as a justification of any kind. 4) Because it's a common rule of decency that in a position of authority, you don't punch down.
    • – Lord Farquaad Dec 05 '18 at 20:03