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(Why cumulative hierarchy of Sets is not model of ZF) As seen from this post, it is proven that V is a structure that satisfies ZFC and is model of it. As we know an inaccessible cardinal k implies Vk (a segment of V) meaning that inaccessible cardinals are apart of the cumulative hierarchy (In what sense are inaccessible cardinals inaccessible?). This is where the problem comes in. It has been accepted that k is inconsistent with ZFC (meaning in the ZFC universe there is no stage Vk) but if V is a model of ZFC (and contains k within it), does that not mean k exists within ZFC? I've only started researching models fairly recently, so the answer to this question may seem 'obvious' to some and would like some clarification. Any answers would be appreciated!

SI J
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    "It has been accepted that k is inconsistent with ZFC" here's the mistake. ZFC cannot prove the consistency of ZFC+there is an inaccessible, but that doesn't mean that an inaccessible is inconsistent with ZFC – Alessandro Codenotti Sep 21 '22 at 05:05
  • @AlessandroCodenotti Thanks for the clarification, but doesn't the problem still arise? V (which is a model of ZFC) contains k, so paradoxically doesn't k still exist within ZFC even if it can't be proven? – SI J Sep 21 '22 at 05:31
  • Do you mean "as we know, existence of inaccessible $k$ implies that $V_k$ exists"? – C7X Sep 21 '22 at 22:52

2 Answers2

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An explanation for the comment thread, some of this is based on Carl Mummert's answer here.

I argue that any discussion about "the universe of ZFC" is actually about $V$. When people say "the universe for [a theory]", they most likely are talking about the intended model of that theory, because that's what we imagine variables ranging over when we discuss it. For example if we talk about "the universe for Peano arithmetic", the set we're thinking while saying this is N, i.e. we imagine the variables ranging over naturals. This is the case even though there are uncountable models of Peano arithmetic, if you mention "universe of PA" those aren't the intended sets that leap to mind. Kleene says the reason for this is because formalization comes after our intuitive idea of what a "set" is: (Kleene, Mathematical Logic (1967), page 200)

Since a formal system (usually) results in formalizing portions of existing informal or semiformal mathematics, its symbols, formulas, etc. will have meaning or interpretations in terms of that informal or semiformal mathematics. These meanings together we call the (intended or usual or standard) interpretation or interpretations of the formal system.

Not only that, $V$ isn't a true "completed" object, because if we try looking at it as the set of all "collections", Russell's paradox occurs. So it's difficult to talk about the intended model of set theory as if it's a "true" object, which makes it hard to connect models of ZFC to $V$. (I credit this MO question for this point.)

So $V$ is what we make of it, and has the properties that we assert it does. If I were to claim "I believe V is the collection of all sets constructed from $\omega$ and the ZFC operations", this would be me saying that sets are only the things constructed in this way and no more, in particular I would claim an inaccessible cardinal does not exist. If I said "V is a collection that happens to contain all sets constructed from $\omega$ and the ZFC operations", I have only said the ZFC axioms are correct, but have left open questions about the sets not constructed this way, in particular the question of an inaccessible existing. The latter is the ZFC-user's perspective on inaccessibles, we can't prove there exists a cardinal which is inaccessible, but it's also consistent that they do exist. $V$ is tameable through the construction of the levels $V_\alpha$, which is still an example of $V$ being what we make of it - this construction works only if we assert "$V$ satisfies the axiom of foundation".

We can still try asking "how are models of ZFC connected to V", by asking what do models of ZFC have in common with the post-Russell view of V? Like in the open-ended perspective from the last paragraph (seeing the ZFC operations as giving a not-necessarily-exhaustive enumeration of all sets that exist,) we can construct models with or without inaccessibles, with even larger cardinals that have many inaccessibles below them, and even a model that we as observers know is countable, but the model proves "there exists an uncountable set". As observers working using all the tools of ZFC available to us, it's describable (but I would avoid describing it) as "looking down from $V$ onto the countable model."

C7X
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Two things:

  • Some details on working in $V_k$: $k$ is not an actual object we have access to when working within $V_k$. In particular, how would we formalize "$k$ exists"? We could try doing this by seeing if $V_k$ satisfies $``k=k"$, in order to do this we could set $\phi(x)\iff \vDash_{V_k}\ulcorner x=x\urcorner$ and try setting $x=k$, the result is a false statement. Then we might try $\vDash_{V_k}\exists x(x=k)$, we get the same false result... when working only within the model $V_k$, since $k\notin V_k$, $k$ is no longer in the domain of discourse. Variables are "prohibited" from taking on the value $k$. In the formalization of $\vDash_{V_k}$, this is done by restricting the ranges of variable assignments - functions that map variable symbols to their members of $V_k$. Since no $\textrm{varSymbol}\to V_k$ function will have output $k$ on any value, any direct formalization of "there is a set equal to $k$" will be a false statement.
  • There are plenty of cases where restricting our axioms prevents us from proving $\exists x\phi(x)$, even when in our model there really is such a set with property $\phi$. For example, assuming ZFC is sound, there is a non-measurable subset of the reals in any model of ZFC. Working within one, we may restrict our proofs to only assume ZF, since these axioms are still satisfied by the model. But then, the non-measurable set is still there, we're just no longer able to prove the true statement "there exists a set of reals which is non-measurable".

More info about models of ZFC:

  • Let $\kappa$ be the least inaccessible. $V_\kappa$ is a model of ZFC, and $V_\kappa$ is closed under powerset. $V_{\kappa+1}$ is not a model of ZFC, and it satisfies the negation of the powerset axiom (e.g., it satisfies "$L_\kappa$ has no powerset".)
  • However, being closed under powerset is not sufficient to be a model of ZFC: $V_{\omega2}$ is not a model of ZFC.
  • Also, being closed under powerset is not even necessary to be a model of ZFC: by the Lowenheim-Skolem theorem, since ZFC has an infinite model (for example $V_\kappa$), there must be a countable model of ZFC. There are some technically difficult constructions of them, and they are able to contain $\omega$ but not $\mathcal P(\omega)$.
C7X
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  • "Even if we pass to V", you do mean if V becomes the model? and to sum up you said that Vk (and above, e.g. Vk + 1) do satisfy ZFC's axioms but none the less still cannot be proven in ZFC due to restrictions? Just to confirm. – SI J Sep 22 '22 at 09:34
  • Also my conception of models is that in effect, models show the 'height' (how far it extends in the Von Neumann universe) of the universe of a theory. For example the model of a purely finite set theory would be Vω and that's also how far the universe for this theory goes. I am confused about how (standard) ZFC's universe is less than Vk (as it can only prove sets constructed via powerset) and how it's universe is also V (which includes all sets)? This is in part why I made this question, to understand the relation between these two 'universes'. Could you please clarify this for me? – SI J Sep 22 '22 at 09:50
  • For your first comment, I will add a new section to my answer. For your second, I think you will like this answer: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/121131, in particular, a set is just an object that acts in the way the axioms say it does, this is substrate-independent and V is then just "the collection of all things which have behavior described by ZFC". Working over a theory for finite sets, V is supposed to consist of only finite sets. (But there are models of our finite set theory containing infinite sets, so V can't be thought of as a concrete object in this way.) – C7X Sep 23 '22 at 07:00
  • Also, why we can't say sets are just the objects that may contain other objects, and V is the collection of them all: "naive set theory" is the point of view of V as some collection that just is, without being generated from some axioms, and it leads to Russell's paradox as there aren't any restrictions on what a set is, or any criteria to determine if some object is in V or not. – C7X Sep 23 '22 at 07:06
  • @SIJ About "even if we pass to V", sorry about that, it's now removed as it's not that important and may make it more confusing. I used it in order to make it seem like in the example we weren't assuming ZFC holds in V then cryptically dropping choice and becoming unable to prove the true statement "there exists a nonmeasurable set", instead I wanted to do it in a model so it would sound more clear to say "this is a model of ZF" instead of "let's drop the axiom of choice which we just assumed was true" – C7X Sep 23 '22 at 07:19
  • So the universe depends on the theory. Is ZFC's universe V or Vk (as it can only construct higher sets via powerset)? – SI J Sep 23 '22 at 07:59
  • My guess is that ZFC'S universe is V, but as you said it's closed under Vk as a model (as even through V is it's universe, it can only construct/prove sets up to Vk exist) – SI J Sep 23 '22 at 09:59
  • If you're a formalist, you'd agree with "the universe depends on the theory" since form a formalist point of view the "universe" is nothing more than the collection of all objects dictated by the axioms. If you're a Platonist, you believe the universe is already a completed object, and our job is to explore and describe the already-existant universe of all sets as best as we can. Since mathematics can be founded on either foundation, neither view is more "correct", and debating which you see as more correct is philosophy instead of math. Admittedly my post edit was more formalist in nature. – C7X Sep 24 '22 at 02:56
  • I heard from another user that V is the universe (and is a completed object) for ZFC. While inaccessible cardinals and beyond (e.g. Vk+1,etc.) cannot be proven to be consistent nor inconsistent with ZFC, almost like they are invisible to it. So even though the universe, V is a model of ZFC, only sets up to Vk are confirmed to exist. – SI J Sep 24 '22 at 03:18
  • "Only sets up to V_k are confirmed to exist" is both an imprecise statement, and false under some formalizations of what it means. It's more difficult to formulate an existence proof than "V_k can be proven to exist", as you can only prove sentences that have no free variables, you will need to define some unique property phi such that V_k is the only set with the property phi, and say "ZFC proves $\exists x\phi(x)$", i.e ZFC proves there is a set with the defining property of V_k. – C7X Sep 24 '22 at 03:24
  • (contd) Following this interpretation of "proving a set exists", there are cardinals called "$\Sigma_2$-correct cardinals", and ZFC proves "there exists a $\Sigma_2$-correct cardinal". $\Sigma_2$-correct cardinals are enormous, under the assumption that there exists an inaccessible cardinal, there is an inaccessible cardinal below the least $\Sigma_2$-correct cardinal $\lambda$. But then, does this mean we have found $\lambda$ such that ZFC proves $\lambda$ exists, and $\kappa\in\lambda$, yet ZFC does not prove $\kappa$ exists? – C7X Sep 24 '22 at 03:26
  • I meant that it is confirmed that sets up to Vk exist via powerset construction. Although is an incorrect statement without the existence of an inaccessible cardinal. It is still equivalent. – SI J Sep 24 '22 at 04:54
  • @SIJ The least $\lambda$ where $V_\lambda$ models ZFC is less than $k$ (such $\lambda$ is called a worldly cardinal, and there are many of them $<k$.) Taking powersets starting from the obviously existent $V_\omega$ is not enough either, we will not pass, say, some $V_\alpha$ where $\alpha=\beth_\alpha$ and $\alpha<k$. By "it's confirmed that sets up to V_k exist" it sounds like you mean members of V_k exists whether we agree to describe them or not (whether we accept "inacc cardinal exists") – C7X Sep 25 '22 at 02:10
  • I was told that inaccessible cardinal (and above, large cardinals) are neither provable nor disprovable in ZFC. So even though V (which contains inaccessible cardinals) is a model of ZFC, inaccessible cardinals are 'invisible' to it, while sets up to Vk aren't. (https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4528549/what-are-the-implications-of-having-v%ce%a9-as-a-model-for-a-theory) - read comment section. And yes that's what I'm saying, Vk will exist if we agree to talk about them or not (which I think is correct) – SI J Sep 25 '22 at 04:17
  • "even though V (which contains inaccessible cardinals) is a model of ZFC, inaccessible cardinals are 'invisible' to it" - just because ZFC can't prove something exists, doesn't mean it's "invisible" to all its models. Not all models of ZFC contain an inaccessible cardinal, if all models of ZFC contained an inaccessible cardinal, "there exists an inaccessible cardinal" would be true in all models of ZFC and by Godel's completeness theorem, ZFC would have to prove it. But some models do contain an inacc cardinal, some don't. – C7X Sep 25 '22 at 04:41
  • (I'm assuming since ZFC is the tool you're using to talk about V, "k is in V but 'invisible' to V" means "we know k is a member of V, but ZFC can't prove 'there is an inaccessible cardinal in V' ". After this, we should likely continue in chat.stackexchange) – C7X Sep 25 '22 at 04:43
  • I mean it's invisible to ZFC by not being able to be proven nor disproven (not only because it can't be proven). In 'standard' ZFC (no add-ons, e.g. + inaccessible cardinal) inaccessible cardinals are 'invisible' to it (neither being able to be proven or disproven). Models with inaccessible cardinals assume the existence of an inaccessible cardinal (through an additional axiom). At least this is what I think. I do not have enough reputation to move this to chats (I only have 5). – SI J Sep 25 '22 at 05:16
  • "Models with inaccessible cardinals assume the existence of an inaccessible cardinal" is what spaceisdarkgreen pointed out in the other comment thread, models don't have a canonical set of axioms associated to them, they're just a set and some relations. A model can't "assume" anything about inaccessibles existing or otherwise, because an assumption like "inaccessibles exist" is an axiom. "Inaccessibles exist" can be independent from a theory, like how it's independent of ZFC (your comments have called this "invisible from ZFC"), but "independent from a model" doesn't make sense. – C7X Sep 25 '22 at 05:39
  • If that is so. Could you explain to me then what exactly the universe for ZFC is and how it is connected with models (in depth)? – SI J Sep 25 '22 at 05:59
  • Since it was too long to put as a comment, I added it as an answer. – C7X Sep 25 '22 at 12:25
  • Also, another question discussing what $V$ really is, and on the topic of viewing $V$ as an already completed object: https://mathoverflow.net/q/383062/479330 – C7X Sep 25 '22 at 12:26
  • As you have stated, spaceisdarkgreen pointed out that models with inaccessible cardinals assume inaccessible cardinals (which is contradictory to what you have said). Does this mean his answer was wrong? – SI J Sep 26 '22 at 09:44
  • @SIJ By that I should have said something more like "Models with inaccessible cardinals assume the existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something that spaceisdarkgreen disproved in the other comment thread", as in spaceisdarkgreen pointed out the error with the statement. I agree with spaceisdarkgreen that the statement "models with inaccessible cardinals assume the existence of an inaccessible cardinal" does not make sense mathematically. What you probably meant by it was "models with inaccessible cardinal satisfy 'there exists an inacc cardinal' ", which is true. – C7X Sep 26 '22 at 21:44
  • I did not quite understand your comment on being independent of theories but not independent of models, but I assume it results in something like this. Vk satisfies ZFC + inaccessible cardinals, but since we cannot prove nor disprove there exists inaccessible cardinals within ZFC. So therefore you cannot prove if (nor disprove) that Vk is a model of 'standard' ZFC. But we do know that V (the universe, a completed object and contains inaccessible cardinals) is a model of ZFC. So isn't my statement that Vk and above are 'invisible' to ZFC correct? – SI J Sep 29 '22 at 12:47
  • Or could it be that the V only contains inaccessible cardinals in theories which do have a model that satisfy 'there exists an inaccessible cardinal' (meaning that V isn't a 'completed' object and rather contains sets up to where the theory can prove consistent). Again I guess it depends on the perspective? – SI J Sep 29 '22 at 12:52
  • I understand what you are talking about the incompleteness theorem, but then how are inaccessible cardinals independent of ZFC? Also could you give an example of a model with inaccessible cardinals that is a model of ZFC (as you have stated, Vk is a model of ZFC + inaccessible cardinals). I thought the heart of the problem was that we cannot prove nor disprove that ZFC = ZFC + inaccessible cardinals. – SI J Sep 30 '22 at 00:27
  • Incompleteness theorem is quite a bit different from the completeness theorem, unfortunately the names are very similar. – C7X Sep 30 '22 at 00:30
  • Sorry about that, I made the mistake of saying V_k is a model of "ZFC + exists an inaccessible", when this is false. I will repost my comment – C7X Sep 30 '22 at 00:31
  • "So therefore you cannot prove if (nor disprove) that Vk is a model of 'standard' ZFC." No, you can prove it models replacement. If a statement φ (e.g. "there exists an inacc cardinal") is independent of ZFC, by the contrapositive of Godel's completeness theorem this means that there must be a model of ZFC modeling φ, and also one modeling !φ. V_(least worldly >k) is an example of a model of ZFC + "there exists an inacc", and when λ is the least worldly cardinal V_λ is an example of a model of ZFC + "there are no inacc cardinals". Completeness thm is the standard bridge from models to theories – C7X Sep 30 '22 at 00:32
  • "could it be that the V only contains inaccessible cardinals in theories which do have a model that satisfy 'there exists an inaccessible cardinal' " Yes, if you are a formalist. Formalists do not view V as a completed object, or even a "real" object for that matter, just as the proper class of all the sets they are working on. If a formalist proves some statement about Grothendieck universes for example, then they would say V contains inaccessible cardinals just because those follow from the assumptions they are using. – C7X Sep 30 '22 at 00:35
  • (contd) if for some reason a formalist decided to restrict themselves to just ZFC and wanted to eliminate Groth universe axiom from their work, if you asked them "does V contain inacc cardinals?" they would say "I don't see V as a completed object but I don't ever use that assumption, so not really." (By chance are you able to gain reputation to be able to talk in chat? It's sort of limiting to have to restrict messages to 600 chars, and this discussion happening in comments is discouraged by the rules) – C7X Sep 30 '22 at 00:36
  • So to sum up formalists don't see V as a not even a completed object and it's size depends on the theory it is working with. On the other hand the platonic view see V as a completed object (containing large cardinals) which may be 'hidden' or 'invisible' to the theory (depending on the model) you are working with based on what the axioms may prove. – SI J Sep 30 '22 at 03:40
  • Doesn't this also mean you can prove any theory does or doesn't have large cardinals (independent and not independent) via incompleteness theorem. There must be an 'ability' that allows us to choose what model we are working in. – SI J Sep 30 '22 at 03:50
  • "So to sum up formalists don't see V as a not even a completed object and it's size depends on the theory it is working with. On the other hand the platonic view see V as a completed object (containing large cardinals)" Correct up until here, large cardinals can be "independent" from a theory, "invisible" to a model, but not "invisible to a model because you are using ZFC". A model (which is just a set and a relation) either contains an inaccessible or it doesn't, even if you want to work using ZFC or Peano arithmetic or ZFC+there are 1000 inaccessible cardinals or whichever theory you like. – C7X Sep 30 '22 at 05:06
  • (When I say "model" I don't mean a model of ZFC I just mean a set with any relation on it, I'm not imposing any restrictions on the set and the relation e.g. even satisfying pairing. "Invisible to a model" is not standard terminology either, but I'm assuming you're using it to mean "the set in question is not a member of the model", like how V_(least worldly >k) satisfies "there exists an inaccessible" because k is in that set.) – C7X Sep 30 '22 at 05:09
  • "Doesn't this also mean you can prove any theory does or doesn't have large cardinals (independent and not independent) via incompleteness theorem." This is a misunderstanding of independence: independence just means ZFC doesn't prove "there exists an inacc cardinal", and ZFC also doesn't prove "there doesn't exist an inacc cardinal". It's not a statement about what ZFC does prove, it's only about the things ZFC doesn't. – C7X Sep 30 '22 at 05:13
  • (contd) If we have a model of ZFC containing an inaccessible, then from that we know ZFC does not prove "there are no inaccessibles" because that's not true of all models of ZFC. If we have a different model of ZFC that doesn't contain an inaccessible, then ZFC does not prove "there exists an inaccessible cardinal" because that's not true of all models of ZFC either. Since ZFC proves neither "there exists an inacc" nor its negation, we say this is independent of ZFC. Is what you thought "from the model with an inacc we know ZFC proves there is an inacc", and same for model without an inacc? – C7X Sep 30 '22 at 05:16
  • Thanks for the clarification! You have been a great help for me when it comes to understanding model theory. Yes, when I mean 'invisible' I mean not apart of that model as it is beyond the 'scope' of that model (e.g. an infinite set is not a member of a finite model, therefore it is 'invisible' to it. The same applies for large cardinals). Sorry about the misunderstanding between 'theory' and 'ZFC', I sometimes use them interchangeably due to ZFC being seen as the 'canonical theory' of which logic operates on. – SI J Sep 30 '22 at 07:30