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I ask as I am only familiar with the Bible. I am asking those familiar with both the Bible and the LDS extra-biblical holy books, i.e. the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. Does any of the LDS extra-biblical holy books assert anything that is in direct, clear, course (as opposed to minutiae) contradiction to what the Bible asserts?

Mike Borden
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  • Up-voted +1. I, too, am unfamiliar with the entire text of the BoM but would be interested to know if it clearly makes contradictory statements in regard of the Hebrew scriptures and the Greek scriptures. A good question. – Nigel J Jul 08 '21 at 22:24
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    It would probably be best to specify whether you want the perspective of non-LDS, or of LDS apologists. – curiousdannii Jul 08 '21 at 23:17
  • In the other question it is stated (in comment) The other thing to note is the Lds believe God the Father has a body of flesh and bone. This might be a relevant feature to examine in this question. – Nigel J Jul 08 '21 at 23:30
  • @NigelJ that belief doesn't come from the BOM so it doesn't relate to this question at all, for LDS scripture references in regards to this topic please reference this – depperm Jul 09 '21 at 00:29
  • The statement He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” appears on the first page of the document to which you linked. So it has relevance, I would say. – Nigel J Jul 09 '21 at 00:32
  • yes but that is an LDS belief not found in the BOM but D&C – depperm Jul 09 '21 at 00:38
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    @depperm the issue can be solved if the question is generalized to include all the extra-biblical writings that are part of the LDS canon. –  Jul 09 '21 at 00:41
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    @MikeBorden I edited the question to make it more general. Feel free to roll it back if you don't agree with the change. –  Jul 09 '21 at 00:51
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    This is akin to asking if there are contradictions in the Bible...I suggest this question is far too general to be effective. – Hold To The Rod Jul 09 '21 at 00:56
  • @SpiritRealmInvestigator I know the BoM is considered by LDS as inspired. Are all three of the works considered to be equally inspired? If not I would prefer to stick with just BoM. – Mike Borden Jul 09 '21 at 12:09
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    @HoldToTheRod Most, if not all, biblical contradictions that folks point at involve minutiae. I am asking about clear, course contradiction as in: bible - God is Good vs. some other book - God is Evil. – Mike Borden Jul 09 '21 at 12:21
  • @mike it might be most concise for you to ask something like "What aspects of Reformed Theology do LDS scriptures deny?" – Peter Turner Jul 10 '21 at 20:00
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    @PeterTurner I'm not looking to drill down into particular theologies. LDS, as I understand, holds the Scriptures to be compromised. I'm interested if this is at a very fundamental level. – Mike Borden Jul 10 '21 at 21:44
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    @HoldToTheRod I don't believe the question to be too general to be effective. The correct answer is concise and highly applicable. This question is valuable since it expresses a very important question that exceedingly many people have. – pygosceles Jul 12 '21 at 02:23

3 Answers3

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Introduction: Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th president of the LDS Church, taught, "You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works." The standard works are the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. The Church does not accept the Journal of Discourses as a reliable expression of LDS Doctrine. On April 6, 1830, Joseph Smith organized The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and became its first president. He died on 27 June 1844. Accordingly, any writers before 1830 are disenfranchised.

Question: Do any of the LDS holy books (Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants and Pearl of Great Price) ever clearly contradict the Bible?

Answer: There is only one major contradiction that matters. Joseph Smith claims that God was once a man. The LDS Church claims that the first spirit offspring of Elohim and his heavenly wife was Jehovah, who came to earth to be born as a human so he could progress to godhood. Mormons aspire to attaining godhood by working their way to the highest level of salvation. Mormon belief is based on these foundational doctrines.

Was God once a mortal, created man?

Joseph Smith: God An Exalted Man: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another... He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.” [p. 305] Source: Official LDS website article on History of the Church and sermon by Joseph Smith: https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/volume-6-chapter-17

Mormons believe God has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321) but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). They believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22).

This is what the Bible says about God: There is only one true God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6–8). He always has existed and always will exist (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalm 90:2; 1 Timothy 1:17). He was not created but is the Creator (Genesis 1; Psalm 24:1; Isaiah 37:16). He is perfect, and no one else is equal to Him (Psalm 86:8; Isaiah 40:25). God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9). He is Spirit (John 4:24), and Spirit is not made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39).

Is Jesus one of many other created spirit gods and can humans attain godhood?

Mormon leaders have taught that Jesus’ incarnation was the result of a physical relationship between God the Father and Mary (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115; Mormon Doctrine, p. 547). Mormons believe Jesus is a god, but that any human can also become a god (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345–354). Mormonism teaches that salvation can be earned by a combination of faith and good works (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).

Contrary to this, Christians historically have taught that no one can achieve the status of God—only He is holy (1 Samuel 2:2). We can only be made holy in God’s sight through faith in Him (1 Corinthians 1:2). Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16), is the only one ever to have lived a sinless life, and now has the highest place of honor in heaven (Hebrews 7:26). Jesus and God are one in essence, Jesus being the only man who existed before physical birth (John 1:1–8; 8:56). Jesus gave Himself to us as a sacrifice, God raised Him from the dead, and one day everyone will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:6–11). Jesus tells us it is impossible to get to heaven by our own works and that only by faith in Him is it possible (Matthew 19:26). We all deserve eternal punishment for our sins, but God’s infinite love and grace have allowed us a way out. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

The ultimate goal of the Mormon gospel is to attain godhood (see McConkie, Mormon Doctrine 116-117; Book of Mormon [3 Nephi 27:13-21]; Doctrines of Salvation 1:268; 18:213; The 4th Article of Faith; Smith, Gospel Doctrine pg. 107; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 3:93; 3:247; 9:312; Gospel Principles 290; Doctrine and Covenants 39:5-6; 132:19-20). Mormons believe that there are different levels or kingdoms in the afterlife: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, the telestial kingdom, and outer darkness (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348). Where mankind will end up depends on what they believe and do in this life (2 Nephi 25:23; Articles of Faith, p.79).

In contrast, the Bible tells us that after death we go to heaven or hell based on whether or not we had faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. To be absent from our bodies means, as believers, we are with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6–8). Unbelievers are sent to hell or the place of the dead (Luke 16:22–23). When Jesus comes the second time, we will receive resurrected, glorified bodies (1 Corinthians 15:50–54). There will be a new heaven and new earth for believers (Revelation 21:1), and unbelievers will be thrown into an everlasting lake of fire (Revelation 20:11–15). There is no second chance for redemption after death (Hebrews 9:27).

Source: https://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html

Edit: In response to the last comment, anything mentioned in the Articles of Faith can be considered foundational doctrine .

Lesley
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  • "The Book of Mormon claims that God was once a man and that the first spirit offspring of Elohim and his heavenly wife was Jehovah, who came to earth to be born as a human so he could progress to godhood." This contradicts nothing in the Bible. – pygosceles Jul 09 '21 at 18:59
  • "Jesus being the only man who existed before physical birth" This claim is contradicted by Jeremiah 1:5, Revelation 12:7, Isaiah 14:12, Romans 8:16, and Genesis 2:5, to name a very few. – pygosceles Jul 09 '21 at 19:02
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    The Book of Mormon claims that God was once a man and that the first spirit offspring of Elohim and his heavenly wife was Jehovah, who came to earth to be born as a human so he could progress to godhood. is false. Yes it is LDS doctrine, but it isn't found in the BOM. You mention The Church does not accept the Journal of Discourses as a reliable expression of LDS Doctrine. but then later on use JoD as a reference (yes you are quoting it but you seem to be trying to prove a point with something you cited earlier as not reliable) – depperm Jul 09 '21 at 19:27
  • The 3rd paragraph attributes to the Book of Mormon teachings about Deity that are not found in the Book of Mormon. Could you clarify what you mean by writers before 1830 being disenfranchised? PS, despite its title "Mormon Doctrine" is not church Doctrine (kind of humorous, I know), and the first edition was soundly condemned by church apostle Mark E. Petersen – Hold To The Rod Jul 09 '21 at 20:36
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    @depperm - Thank you for pointing out that error, which I have corrected. And yes, there is a reference to the Journal of Discourses which one source I read (going back several years) says can not be taken as "gospel". Readers can make make up their own minds on that, taking into account the other sources which include the BoM, D&C and PGP. – Lesley Jul 10 '21 at 06:39
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    @HoldToTheRod - I have amended that paragraph and quoted directly from what Joseph Smith taught on the subject. The point of 1830 is that no writings prior to then (when Joseph Smith founded the Church) are deemed to be acceptable, as far as I can ascertain. I would have thought that the writings of Joseph Smith would be held in the highest esteem. – Lesley Jul 10 '21 at 06:46
  • @Lesley thank you, much appreciated. The teachings of Joseph Smith are indeed held in very high esteem. His King Follett discourse would be a good source for much of the material you're looking for. FYI, several sections of the Doctrine & Covenants were given in the 1820s. – Hold To The Rod Jul 10 '21 at 07:21
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    @HoldToTheRod I shall check out the King Follett discourse, and thanks for the information that several sections of D&C were pre 1930. I have no wish to misrepresent LDS beliefs and will gladly amend my records when corrected. – Lesley Jul 10 '21 at 08:36
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    @pygosceles The clear teaching of the Bible is that God has always been God. Psalm 90:2 "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Everlasting is ‛ôlâm    ‛ôlâm, the vanishing point, repeated. A Hebrew expression meaning "to the horizon...and again". It is an expression of eternity. There has never been a "time" when God was not just as He is and there never will be. God did never become God. – Mike Borden Jul 10 '21 at 10:48
  • the wording Mormon belief is based on these foundational doctrines is also misleading. I would say anything mentioned in the Articles of Faith can be considered foundational doctrine – depperm Jul 10 '21 at 19:57
  • @depperm Thanks for that comment and link, which I have now added into my answer as an edit. – Lesley Jul 11 '21 at 08:02
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Using only the Latter Day Saints own Book of Mormon, I would suggest contradictions here.

2 Nephi 25:23 - "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Cf. Romans 11:5-6 - "...there is a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."

Alma 7:10 - "And behold, he shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem, which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God."

Cf. Micah 5:2 - "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he [Jesus, the Son of God] come forth unto me..." along with Matthew 2:6.

Consider also that in the LDS Journal of Discources Vol. 1 pp 50 - 51 Brigham Young said, "Jesus Christ was NOT begotten by the Holy Ghost."

Helaman 14:20-27 - "...a sign of his [Christ's] death, behold in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of THREE DAYS, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead... and that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of THREE DAYS."

Cf. Matthew 27:45 - "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour." THREE HOURS, as likewise stated in Mark 15:33 & Luke 23:44.

Alma 46:13-15 - [In B.C. 73 he prayed] "for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land - For thus were all the true believers of Christ, who belonged to the church of God, called by those who did not belong to the church. And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come."

Cf. Acts 11:26 - [Circa A.D. 42] "And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

2 Nephi ch. 2 gives the B of M account of Adam and Eve wherein it is claimed that they could have had no children unless they disobeyed God, "wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin... Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy."

Genesis gives a different account, for Adam and Eve were commanded to procreate prior to the matter of disobedience against God's command about one particular fruit-tree. However anyone 'reads' the Genesis account, it's clear that God would not have told them to procreate if eating the forbidden fruit was a euphemism for sex.

Those are just a few examples from the LDS Book of Mormon. There are many other LDS extra-biblical writings that clearly contradict the Bible, but when those are pointed out, LDS proponents are inclined to insist that such writings are indifferent. Some of us would disagree, but this is not the place for arguments!

Mike Borden
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Anne
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    Of course the Savior was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. He was begotten by the power of the Highest, and conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, as attested in Scripture. – pygosceles Jul 09 '21 at 19:07
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    This response is confusing. No contradictions were proposed. For an exposition on grace and works, I suggest reading the full context of 2 Nephi 25 in conjunction with OT and NT passages on the subject. The three days of darkness were prophesied for the Western Hemisphere, which is where they occurred. Being called Christians is also a local thing. These are basic physical realities. 2 Nephi 2 refers specifically to the effects of the Fall. I do agree at least that it was never necessary to disobey God; Eve got this wrong. Of course the forbidden fruit is not a euphemism for sex. – pygosceles Jul 09 '21 at 19:16
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    eating the forbidden fruit was a euphemism for sex is not a doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. – Hold To The Rod Jul 09 '21 at 20:18
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No, not so far as the Bible is translated correctly. At the points where the Bible translation is not correct, it often contradicts itself, such as when a skewed translation claims that "it repented God that he had made man on the earth", yet in Numbers we read that God cannot repent because He is not subject to sin.

The Joseph Smith Translation (also called the Inspired Translation) corrects many of the errors in the degraded translations of the Bible, but as I understand it this inspired retranslation was never completed. You can find many instances where the Joseph Smith translation corrects or clarifies one of these scribal or other errors. The footnote on Genesis chapter 6 verse 6 is an example; the JST says that it was Noah who had those feelings, not God. The effect of the inspired translations of Joseph Smith is not only to expound the doctrine of Christ which is in the Bible, but they also correct some of the errors that have arisen in our renditions of it.

The Doctrine is the Same

Although names, places and events differ, the doctrine of Christ delivered in the Book of Mormon is self-consistent and completely consistent with the doctrine of Christ as revealed in the Bible:

"And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do." (2 Nephi 31:10-12)

"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

Having both of these witnesses, it is not possible to miss noting what the doctrine of Christ is, and the central message of the Bible becomes all the more clear. It is not a travelogue for the Jews. It is an actual testament of the divinity of Jesus Christ, and that all men must come unto Him or they cannot be saved. The message of the Book of Mormon is the same.

The Book of Mormon fulfills prophecy made in the Bible, that God would send additional witnesses of His word, and that His word would become as one in our hands:

"Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand." Ezekiel 37:19

The people of the Book of Mormon are descendants of Joseph.

"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established" 2 Corinthians 13:1

Everyone is invited to read the Book of Mormon and enjoy its numerous confirming witnesses of the Bible, the promises of the Lord to His people and additional teachings of Christ intended specifically for our benefit in this day. He is the Living God and His words never cease; His work is ongoing today. Those who seek Him will find him, just as Nephi and Moses did, who are the first authors in each of these respective mountains of testimony that span generations and transcend nations.

pygosceles
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    Genesis 6:6 and Numbers 23:19 both contain the Hebrew word nacham. This Hebrew word needs to be translated by an English word. The KJV has chosen 'repent' which has a spectrum of meaning, not just one application of a rigid concept. It is abundantly clear what the concept is in both these places and there is no question of 'contradiction' when one intelligently assesses the meaning being conveyed. The claim of a 'skewed' translation is incorrect. Any attempt to alter the Hebrew in order to 'simplify' the text is unwarranted. – Nigel J Jul 08 '21 at 23:37
  • @NigelJ This presupposes that the earlier texts were unaltered, which is a dubious assumption. – pygosceles Jul 08 '21 at 23:41
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    The Hebrew scripture is the most closely guarded, historically reliable, and accurately maintained documentation on the face of the earth. You would need to clearly state what alterations you are claiming. – Nigel J Jul 08 '21 at 23:42
  • The alterations have been clearly identified. Click the link to the amendment made in the footnote. The texts were first altered in the wake of the martyrdom of the Apostles and the loss of the keys. One cannot find an extant text that would likely contain the unscathed original. I know of no one who has access to the original manuscripts of the Bible, do you? Therefore we cannot expect the original necessarily to agree with any extant transcript. In any case, there is no need to downvote something over a difference of theological opinion. – pygosceles Jul 08 '21 at 23:50
  • Your link is not working. : An error occurred while processing your request. Reference #97.65f254b8.1625790515.16139bd4. I prefer not to discuss Textual Criticism (a very disciplined science) in comment. So, no further comment from myself, thank you. – Nigel J Jul 09 '21 at 00:30
  • @NigelJ the LDS site seems to be experiencing technical difficulties at this time – depperm Jul 09 '21 at 00:32
  • @NigelJ Holy Revelation is not subject to the bounds of manmade fields such as "Textual Criticism". Were it otherwise, there would be no such thing as Christianity. One does not obtain a testimony that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, or that He is risen from the tomb, through textual criticism. One only obtains it by faith in the promises of God, through actual revelation from God to his heart and mind. – pygosceles Jul 09 '21 at 01:02
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    There is actually great protection in the multiplicity of manuscripts. Were the autographs extant, one change there would destroy all. – Mike Borden Jul 09 '21 at 13:01
  • To your point, the shape of that graph is crucial, and it will vary by the portion of the text that is covered. If it were ever the case (and it certainly was at some point for many of these) that all extant copies were derived through a bottleneck, then that bottleneck constitutes a single point or few points of failure that, were errors to be introduced at those points, they would have largely unrecoverable downstream effects, save for an inspired translator, seer and revelator appointed by God to the task of recovering what was lost. – pygosceles Jul 09 '21 at 17:04
  • Case in point: The downvotes are due to bias, not due to any lack of correctness or satisfactoriness of this answer. – pygosceles Jul 09 '21 at 18:57
  • By the same manner of reasoning, lack of error at those alleged "bottlenecks" would keep downstream effects pure. – Mike Borden Jul 10 '21 at 10:55
  • @MikeBorden It could not, as apostasy is jealous and widespread. We have no guarantees of integrity the moment we begin playing a telephone game. The longer we play it, the weaker the original signal becomes. Everyone knows this. – pygosceles Jul 10 '21 at 15:25
  • @MikeBorden Moreover, are you purporting to have seen the original manuscripts for the Bible, and to know what they look like or what they contain? – pygosceles Jul 10 '21 at 15:25
  • The telephone game is aural and is a game. No one sees the original manuscript for The Iliad. No one seriously doubts that The Iliad is faithfully preserved in only 300 manuscripts. – Mike Borden Jul 10 '21 at 22:21
  • @MikeBorden The principle is still valid. Repeated translation or even direct transcription reduces the probability of "no transmission" of scribal, rendition or other errors exponentially with each generation removed from the source. Conflation of present-day translations or even thousand-plus-year-old ones with the original as though the modified versions were infallible is a pitiable mistake. The Iliad is a work of fiction and so is not as susceptible to malicious alteration. Count me as having serious credible doubts about the faithful preservation of a text whose authors were murdered. – pygosceles Jul 10 '21 at 22:39
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    Your answer to this question would be welcome. – curiousdannii Jul 11 '21 at 03:22
  • So, the Iliad may have less malicious alteration because it is fiction, but the Bible, as God's very Word, can have no divine protection? – Mike Borden Jul 11 '21 at 11:57
  • @MikeBorden What did God promise would happen to it? What happened to the Apostles? Why are there so many "Christian" denominations today? There was originally only one. This is strongly suggestive that something was missing or corrupted. – pygosceles Jul 11 '21 at 14:38
  • Christian denominations are not produced by alterations in Scripture: They all defend their denominations from the same Scriptures. Division in the Body of Christ comes about through carnality and jealousy (1 Cor. 2-3) and also personal desire (James 4). The Word of the Lord stands forever but there are Tares among the Wheat. – Mike Borden Jul 12 '21 at 13:54
  • @MikeBorden There are tares, and there are honest seekers after truth in every denomination. The fragmentation came about in part because the word of God that each had access to was often not sufficiently complete because of plain and precious truths that had been removed. Moreover the leadership of the church that Christ established is conspicuously absent after the murder and exile of the original apostles. The stumbling and formation of churches based on competing interpretations became inevitable once those truths and leaders were removed. What is the doctrine of Christ? – pygosceles Jul 12 '21 at 15:49
  • There were false teachings, false Christ's and false gospels being promulgated within the church while many, if not most, of the apostles were still there and the New Testament was so fresh it was still being written. Galatians is a prime example and Paul warned, in Acts 20, that it would continue and increase after he departed. It has absolutely nothing to do with a supposed degradation of Scripture. – Mike Borden Jul 12 '21 at 16:17
  • @MikeBorden People cannot understand truth if it has not been taught to them correctly. So apostasy of individuals and groups has everything to do with corruption of doctrine, which implies corruption of Scripture. "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD" (Amos 8:11). "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers" 2 Timothy 4:3 – pygosceles Jul 12 '21 at 18:00
  • @MikeBorden "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." (Isaiah 24:5) The argument that the New Testament "was still being written" does not contradict in the least point the temptation to change that or other Scripture. Those people who preached false doctrines, who murdered the Apostles, they also changed Scripture. Are you or anyone else telling me that they would allow any texts they had control over to survive unscathed, which contradicted their priestcrafts? Absurd. – pygosceles Jul 12 '21 at 18:03
  • "Those people who preached false doctrines, who murdered the Apostles, they also changed Scripture." Tradition has the Apostles being murdered in widely scattered locations at various times with varying degrees of historical support from India to Rome to Greece. There is not even a single hint of some kind of organized effort to murder the Apostles and change Scripture. And in your answer you boast that the Doctrine of Christ in the BoM and the Bible are the same, thereby verifying that either the Bible is incorrupt in that area or the BoM agrees with that which is corrupt. – Mike Borden Jul 13 '21 at 12:02
  • @MikeBorden "There is not even a single hint of some kind of organized effort to murder the Apostles and change Scripture." Yet they were all murdered or exiled; surely this constitutes collaboration of some kind even if you allege that it was not a direct conspiracy. How can you allege that the devil is not organized in his effort, when the original Church of Christ was extinguished so thoroughly? How can you deny the alteration of Scripture when these men were murdered for their testimony? Hitler's goons burned books, as did the Marxists. How then could their testimony survive unscathed? – pygosceles Jul 13 '21 at 17:11
  • @MikeBorden "the Doctrine of Christ in the BoM and the Bible are the same, thereby verifying that either the Bible is incorrupt in that area or the BoM agrees with that which is corrupt." Such as survives unchanged is consistent across all of these sacred volumes of Scripture. Satan had to remove hundreds of passages declaring the Doctrine of Christ in order to cause the sectarians to stumble. Despite his zeal against God, he is not perfectly thorough; he missed a few. Nonetheless there are enough contradictions that the altered Bible is impossible to understand without additional Scripture. – pygosceles Jul 13 '21 at 17:14
  • @MikeBorden Otherwise, why are there so many churches that allege basis in the Bible, and contradict each other? It is because precious confirming truths and the focal truths were largely removed, so that only remnants exist. It is not possible to piece together the enigma of the Holy Bible without ultimately recognizing and confessing that a jealous hand has been upon it, to tear some pages out, to alter and to suppress and confound the testimony of Christ while maintaining the form of godliness so as to instill artificial piety and feign claim to authority, while sapping the power thereof. – pygosceles Jul 13 '21 at 17:18
  • You cannot imagine a more diabolical plot than this one, and yet it is precisely what has transpired, proving at once that the devil is real and that what he attacks is indeed the work of God. In his urgency to gut Scripture, Satan has indeed attested to its Divine origin, its legitimacy and truthfulness. Awareness of our attacker inspires in me greater faith in and desire to be united with our Savior, through the means appointed by Him. – pygosceles Jul 13 '21 at 17:21
  • I can imagine a more diabolical plot but I have no wish to offend you. – Mike Borden Jul 14 '21 at 12:58
  • @MikeBorden It is always possible to play devil's advocate and assume that the devil has deceived everyone, everywhere, about everything. However, God is real and Conscience leads the honest at heart to Him. It is very easy to dismiss the truths of God through ignorance. We also know that apostasy is real. We know that pejoration and loss of records occurs by default even without diabolical intervention, and the devil accelerates it. We have seen this pattern before. It would be unreasonable to assume it has ceased. We also know God reveals things through living Prophets in each dispensation. – pygosceles Jul 14 '21 at 15:56
  • We know that the whole world lies under the sway of the evil one and that the eyes of unbelievers are blinded to the truth as a starting point. We know that false prophets are predicted to come and lead many astray in the latter days (Matthew 24:4,11,24). The protection from these false teachers is familiarity with the Scripture and being counted amongst the elect by spiritual re-birth. – Mike Borden Jul 23 '21 at 12:54
  • I was more thinking that Satan appeared to Joseph Smith as an angel of light and deceived him into accepting a false revelation to deceive people into mistrusting the Scripture (thereby taking away the source of protection from false teaching) and believing a false gospel and a false Christ. – Mike Borden Jul 23 '21 at 12:54
  • @MikeBorden That explains absolutely nothing of why the Book of Mormon is the most consistent book with the Bible ever written. Moreover at best it is an opinion. If you believe the Gospel taught by Joseph Smith is not the Gospel of Christ, you do not believe the Bible. – pygosceles Jul 24 '21 at 19:50
  • Haven't you been trying to convince me that it is virtually impossible that the Bible has remained free of corruption? How then can the two Gospels be the same? – Mike Borden Jul 25 '21 at 17:52
  • @MikeBorden The Gospel as contained in the Bible is discernible once one knows what it is. It is that we can saved through the Atonement of Christ by faith in Christ, repentance of all sin, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end. A person who does not believe this does not believe the Bible, and is at war against God. The "all-or-nothing" mentality is bogus. The Bible does contain the veritable words of God, notwithstanding some corruptions and omissions, some of which were intentional, by those who had the records. This understanding is restored by revelation. – pygosceles Jul 25 '21 at 20:19
  • "It is that we can saved through the Atonement of Christ by faith in Christ, repentance of all sin, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end." There are many who possess this understanding quite apart from, indeed rejecting the possibility and necessity of, additional prophetic revelation. The Gospel is truly veiled to those who are perishing but the revelation comes by the Father. "Blessed are you, Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you..." – Mike Borden Jul 27 '21 at 12:11
  • @MikeBorden If one rejects current prophetic revelation, this is the same as forfeiting faith in the Savior. There never was a person who could claim to believe Jesus Christ, and yet reject the words of Jesus Christ as delivered through a mortal man called by God like Moses, Noah, and Enoch were. The Scriptures are replete with evidences that both personal and priesthood revelation are necessary for gaining salvation. Jesus said to His Apostles, "He that receiveth you receiveth me". Taking one without the other is like expecting one terminal of a battery to light a bulb. It will never work. – pygosceles Jul 27 '21 at 17:52
  • What if the "current" or new revelation is in contradiction of the "prior" or original revelation? – Mike Borden Jul 30 '21 at 11:49
  • @MikeBorden If it is God, it is not a contradiction of the Gospel as earlier revealed, although short-sighted interpretations often interject original misunderstandings. Is there a particular revelation or teaching you are concerned about? If so, you are free to make a post about it and solicit answers to your question. – pygosceles Jul 30 '21 at 20:37